Doubling Down on Employer Brand

Chris Hoyt: I feel like sometimes I need a hat, a harmonica, a monkey with cymbals, a drum kit, and a stomp box. It’s a one-man show.

John Graham: Totally a one-man show.

Chris Hoyt: I have to tell you, I was working out last night—shoutout to a friend of ours—I had the TV on watching episode one of The Amazing Race. And you know we’ve got a friend on there.

John Graham: That’s right, Jackie Clayton. She’s a resident superstar. But first, let’s back up. Congratulations on working out last night, right? Let’s not overlook that. When we get to our age, working out? That’s worth celebrating. You’re not in the hospital, you feel good, you look good—congrats! I’m all in.

Chris Hoyt: When I do something, I’m all in, John. I’ve even got one of those glucose monitors on the back of my arm.

John Graham: I thought you were showing a muscle there!

Chris Hoyt: Nope, it’s the monitor. We’re supposed to watch our sugar intake now, you know?

John Graham: Allegedly, yeah.

Chris Hoyt: I did it as a support thing with my wife. My doctor said I should get my glucose levels checked now and then. So, we tried it. Watching the live stream of your blood sugar levels? It’s nuts. Total game changer. I found out I need to eat half the rice I usually do—because I love a rice bowl for dinner—and my sugar just skyrockets.

John Graham: Does it hurt putting that thing in?

Chris Hoyt: You open it up, and there’s a needle about this long. You think, “Oh no.” But you stay strong because she’s doing it too—you’ve got to act like it doesn’t bother you.

John Graham: Uh-huh.

Chris Hoyt: But you don’t even feel it.

John Graham: Really?

Chris Hoyt: Not at all.

John Graham: My wife was monitoring her glucose too. Yeah, this is great.

Chris Hoyt: I was just telling my parents about this. It’s called Stelo—S-T-E-L-O. They’re not a sponsor, but it stays on for two weeks.

John Graham: Okay.

Chris Hoyt: That seems to be enough to get what you need. It shows you when you’re peaking and crashing, alerts you when you spike, and you can log what you were doing—working out, eating, whatever.

John Graham: This is amazing. People are gonna watch this and think, “What did I tune into?” But this is good info for folks who want to be healthier. But the real headline was Jackie Clayton—phenom, amazing mind and voice in this space.

Chris Hoyt: Yeah, I was watching her on the show thinking, “I’d love to do that. It’d be great to go with my partner, have fun.” Then they got to this obstacle where they had to climb straight up something, and I was like… nope.

John Graham: Nope. “Thanks for the opportunity, but I’m going home.”

Chris Hoyt: “Thanks for the trip to Hong Kong. I’ll do a little sightseeing, then head home.”

John Graham: That’s right.

Chris Hoyt: I’d be afraid of the embarrassment. I mean, just completely crashing.

John Graham: Yeah, if you bomb on The Amazing Race and come home, your friends have to pretend they didn’t see you destroy your reputation on national TV. Nope, no thanks.

Chris Hoyt: That’s why you and I are not on the show.

John Graham: Exactly right.

Chris Hoyt: Good point. All right, well, we do have TA-related stuff to talk about. Are you ready, legend?

John Graham: Let’s go!

Chris Hoyt: Here we go.

Announcer: Welcome to the Recruiting Community Podcast, the go-to channel for talent acquisition leaders and practitioners. This show is brought to you by CXR, a trusted community of thousands connecting the best minds in the industry to explore topics like attracting, engaging, and retaining top talent. Hosted by Chris Hoyt and Jerry Crispin. We are thrilled to have you join the conversation.

Chris Hoyt: Welcome back to the Recruiting Community Podcast. I’m your host, Chris Hoyt. I’m Jerry-less today—he’s on the road—so I’m filling in. If you’ve never tuned in, we’re an unsponsored podcast. Our guests don’t pay to be here; they’re just doing cool stuff we want to shine a light on. We’re streaming on LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitch—check us out. If you’re watching on LinkedIn, drop a message or question in the chat.

Head over to cxr.works/podcast to like, subscribe, and keep this labor of love going.

I’ve got an industry friend and guest today. If you haven’t met this guy, he’s definitely worth meeting. John, how are you?

John Graham: Hey Chris, I’m good! That was a great intro—I’m taking notes. Glad to be here. I finally made it to this version of the podcast!

Chris Hoyt: We’re glad to have you back! It’s been a minute.

John Graham: New look, fresh feel—it’s been a while.

Chris Hoyt: Got a new intro too. Jerry loves that it says his name now.

John Graham: Uncle Jay!

Chris Hoyt: Big G!

John Graham: That’s right!

Chris Hoyt: For those who haven’t met you or seen you speak, give us the elevator pitch. Who’s John Graham?

John Graham: High-level: I’m a father, husband, provocateur, author, speaker, brand consultant. I wear a few hats. I’m VP of Employer Brand Strategy, Humanity and Culture at Shaker Recruitment Marketing. I used to be a client of Shaker’s when I led global employer brand in the pharma and biotech space. Now I help clients build brands with humanity baked in and lead our internal DE&I function.

Chris Hoyt: I love that—“humanity baked in.” So, there’s a new administration in town. It’s been a chaotic time. A lot of conversations are surfacing again about DE&I in recruiting. Some companies are backing off, some are pausing to wait it out, and others are doubling down and standing proud. What are you seeing?

John Graham: Yeah, it’s been a lot. I’ve been tracking this since late 2023, even before the headlines about rollbacks. Around October or November, I noticed companies hitting a wall. They had all the data, insights, and consultants, but weren’t taking action to change systems or structures. That’s hard work—it gets into identity.

By 2024, companies started rolling things back. As an employer brand practitioner, the question became: “How do we position culture when you’re in the headlines for cutting DE&I?”

You can highlight the good stuff in your culture, but if DE&I was part of that and now it’s gone, you can’t lean on it anymore.

Fast forward to now—2025—and it’s like people are afraid of their own shadows. DE&I has become like Voldemort. No one wants to say it. But we’re starting to see people come out the other side.

Chris Hoyt: Yeah, and some organizations are just removing the D-word from their websites. They say they’re not changing hiring practices or culture, but they want to take the target off their back. And yet, that has a ripple effect internally and externally. So now the branding conversation is, “How do you communicate your culture without betraying your audience?”

John Graham: Exactly. There’s a whole spectrum. Some are scrubbing every mention of DE&I from job ads and career sites. Others say, “We’re not government contractors, we’re not changing anything.” And then some are just changing the words—“belonging,” “culture,” or “inclusion-based” messaging.

As brand consultants, we don’t make the legal calls. That’s on legal and comms. But once they decide on a direction, we help position the brand accordingly.

If you’ve baked DE&I into your brand, you now have to decide what to extract and what to keep. Strip out too much, and your brand becomes vanilla and unrecognizable. Candidates won’t know who you are, and employees won’t recognize the culture.

Chris Hoyt: That reminds me—we spoke to one employer of choice who stripped their EEO statement down to just “We’re an equal opportunity employer.” They removed all the specifics. Meanwhile, the administration is keyword-searching websites and pulling down anything “too inclusive”—including oddities like removing “Enola Gay” from a museum. It’s wild.

John Graham: This is where AI fails you! And yes, Title VII hasn’t changed—you still can’t discriminate based on protected classes.

Chris Hoyt: But if I had a really big Sharpie?

John Graham: Not even a giant Sharpie will help!

Chris Hoyt: So with all this, is there a most overlooked aspect of employer branding related to inclusivity right now?

John Graham: A few things. One, companies are trying to use employer branding to achieve recruitment marketing outcomes. That’s a mismatch. EB is about awareness, perception, and reputation—not immediate hiring results.

When it comes to inclusivity, it can be built into both EB and recruitment marketing. But now people are asking, “Can we even use certain images anymore?” The answer is yes. You can still reflect your actual workforce.

If you want to increase representation, bring together those communities within your company and tell their stories. There’s nothing illegal about that.

People just need to read the actual laws and get out of this fear mindset. Talk to legal, get your comms team aligned, and be honest about who you are. Don’t lose your brand’s essence.

Chris Hoyt: You could’ve given this same advice 10 years ago, and it’d still be relevant.

John Graham: Exactly! The laws haven’t changed. This is what manufactured chaos feels like.

Chris Hoyt: Love that phrase. Tell us more—manufactured chaos?

John Graham: Yeah, it’s chaos created intentionally to throw people off. Headlines stir fear, but when you dig into the facts, not much has changed legally. The goal is to get people to stop doing things out of fear.

Chris Hoyt: It’s exhausting. This isn’t like the last time this leadership was in place. This time feels like a coordinated effort to distract us every two weeks. It’s a weapon of mass distraction.

John Graham: Yep. I’ve never seen so many TA leaders this stressed since the pandemic. It’s like a flashback.

Chris Hoyt: Agreed. We’re seeing the same. I love that Shaker is hosting community conversations. It’s important to have a safe space to talk things out.

John Graham: Absolutely. We need human-to-human conversations, empathy, and space to learn together.

Chris Hoyt: And on that note—you’ve launched a podcast! Tell us about it.

John Graham: Yes! Employer Branding Unfiltered, powered by Shaker. It’s a space for EB practitioners—whether you’re new or seasoned—to talk shop. We cover activation strategies, collaboration with TA and comms, and more. It’s a fun, real conversation with people in the space. We just started recording season two!

Chris Hoyt: Awesome. Listeners, check out cxr.works/ebu. That’ll take you to their latest episode. You’ve got some heavy hitters on there!

John Graham: Grateful for everyone who’s joined. It’s been great.

Chris Hoyt: Okay, final question—we ask every guest: If you were going to write a book about the state of things today, what would the title be?

John Graham: “Ask Better Questions.” We’re taking too much at face value. Get to know your brand better. Understand how EB supports business goals. Don’t just be the employer of choice—be the culture of choice.

Chris Hoyt: And who gets the first signed copy?

John Graham: The first employer brand practitioner who reaches out and says, “I’d love a signed copy.” That’s who gets it.

Chris Hoyt: Smooth dodge, my friend.

John Graham: Neo in the Matrix!

Chris Hoyt: Love it. Hope to see you at one of the upcoming events—Transform, Unleash, and all the rest. John, thank you so much for making time today.

John Graham: Thank you, Chris. Always a great conversation.

Chris Hoyt: Group hug! All right, everyone, cxr.works/podcast. That’s all you need to remember. John, hang tight after the bumper. See you all next week!

Announcer: Thanks for listening to the Recruiting Community Podcast, where talent acquisition leaders connect, learn, and grow together. Visit cxr.works/podcast to explore past episodes, see what’s coming up next, and find out how you can join the conversation. Want to be a guest? We’d love to hear from you. To learn more about becoming a CXR community member, visit www.cxr.works. See you next time.