Branding & Marketing Report Insights

Chris Hoyt: We’ve got lots of travel going on and we’re getting ready to hit the road. This is a bit of a prerecord, a little early, so for us, we’re walking into the weekend. Jimmy, you got any weekend plans?

Jimmy McCourt: You know, it’s mainly centered around my two kids—keeping them alive and keeping us sane. That’s about what I know of our weekend plans. We could do some things; I’m just not aware of them yet.

Chris Hoyt: Keep ’em breathing. That’s the goal.

Gerry Crispin: You know, my generation, my parents just said, “Get the hell out of the house and come back when it’s dark.”

Chris Hoyt: Yeah, same here.

Jimmy McCourt: I’ll just set ’em out there.

Chris Hoyt: We had this thing called “whistling distance.” We could go anywhere in the neighborhood as long as, when my dad stepped out the front door and whistled, we could hear it and knew to come back. That, and dark—those were the rules.

Gerry Crispin: It was our responsibility to hear the whistle. We were accountable. If they were looking for us, we better be within hearing distance.

Jimmy McCourt: Same thing with my dad. He had this very loud whistle that we were always impressed by. I was obsessed with learning that dad whistle. Never mastered it.

Chris Hoyt: Yeah, I never figured it out either. Just can’t do it.

Gerry Crispin: Nowadays, it’s just not possible. You’ve got to be a lot more aware of where your kids are at all times.

Chris Hoyt: That’s why we have “Find My Phone.” They don’t have to be in whistling distance anymore—just texting distance.

Chris Hoyt: Alright, you guys ready to get started?

Jimmy McCourt: You betcha.

Gerry Crispin: Let’s do it.

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Chris Hoyt: Alright, everybody—welcome back to another recruiting community podcast show. We do this pretty regularly—almost weekly—and we’re well into our 400th-ish episode. We try to bring weekly insights and updates in the form of conversations. I’m your host, Daffy. I’ve got with me today… Bugs. How are you, Bugs?

Gerry Crispin: Yeah, Elmer. Just call me Elmer.

Chris Hoyt: I was hoping for a “What’s up, doc?”—that’s why I gave you Bugs.

Gerry Crispin: What’s up, doc?

Chris Hoyt: There it is! Money. On the hook today, we’ve got Jimmy McCourt. Jimmy is the VP of Client Services at Shaker Recruitment Marketing, and he helped co-facilitate a research report with us that addresses the intersection—and even the ownership—of Employer Brand (EB) and Recruitment Marketing (RM) work. Super excited to have him here today to talk about that.

Quick housekeeping: we’re streaming on YouTube, Facebook, LinkedIn, and Twitch. You can check out past and future episodes at cxr.works/podcast. If you’re watching on LinkedIn, there’s a chat where you can add comments. This session is prerecorded since we’ll be at HR Tech—or on the road—when it airs. But if you drop a question or comment, we’ll follow up.

Also, this is an ad-free labor of love. Nobody pays to be on the podcast or to give their opinion. We bring in folks who are doing great work or have cool things to share. Jerry, would you agree?

Gerry Crispin: I do. And I love that we highlight conflict of interest—it’s important.

Chris Hoyt: Absolutely. Let’s bring in Jimmy from the green room. There he is—Jimmy, good to see you.

Jimmy McCourt: Good to see you guys too. Thanks for having me. Happy to be here.

Chris Hoyt: Thanks for joining. We know it’s a busy time of year—budgets, travel, conferences, all the things as we round into Q4. It’s been a hell of a year for everyone in the industry.

Jimmy McCourt: I appreciate the deep breath—trying to keep it calm.

Chris Hoyt: Sometimes all I need is a glass of wine and a big “om.”

Jimmy McCourt: It’s five o’clock somewhere.

Chris Hoyt: Let’s dive in. Jerry, for folks who haven’t met Jimmy yet, can you give us a quick introduction?

Jimmy McCourt: Sure. I’m Jimmy McCourt, VP of Client Services at Shaker. Recruitment marketing and employer branding is all I’ve ever known. My first job out of college was at Indeed when they were still introducing people to the idea of pay-per-click job ads. From there, I worked at SimplyHired and even spent time in the newspaper space, which ended up being incredibly valuable. It gave me a holistic, historic view of where recruitment marketing has come from.

I’ve been with Shaker for seven years and in my current role for the past few. I get to work with amazing organizations, many of whom are part of the CXR community. It’s been a great ride, and I’m excited to talk about our recent research panel.

Chris Hoyt: Love it. So this panel is part of a series we’ve done, and this one focuses on the intersection and ownership of employer brand and recruitment marketing. We pulled in 30–50 practitioners and experts over 4–5 weeks, each week tackling a different theme.

We had folks like Brian Adams from Happy Dance, Rachel Duran from Hewlett Packard Enterprise, James Ellis, John Graham from Shaker, and Nicole Fritz from CVS Health—just to name a few. These people really leaned in, and it was incredible.

Gerry Crispin: It was more of a white paper than a report—so much depth, and more content than we could possibly use.

Chris Hoyt: Jimmy, was there anything in the discussions that surprised you?

Jimmy McCourt: I wouldn’t say it was surprising that we had strong discussions around ownership of EB and RM, but it was enlightening to hear the reasoning behind everyone’s perspectives. A key takeaway for me was how situational ownership can be—but regardless of who owns it, collaboration is crucial.

Chris Hoyt: I totally agree. Whether it’s in TA or marketing, success seemed to hinge on collaboration across the board.

Jimmy McCourt: Right. Marketing might have more resources, but they’re often removed from hiring needs. TA is closer to those needs but may lack the tools. The magic happens when they work together.

Gerry Crispin: And EB often has a broader view—it’s about employee perception, not just candidates. But the message still has to land with candidates, so collaboration is key.

Chris Hoyt: Absolutely. Authenticity was a huge theme. If your EB doesn’t align with the actual employee experience, you lose credibility. I was just talking to Richard Mosley about this today. It reminded me of the new Nike ad—shows athletes vomiting, falling, struggling. The message is “Greatness doesn’t always feel good.” That kind of authenticity is so powerful.

Jimmy McCourt: That ad is a great example. John Graham made a great point in the panel: candidates choose companies they feel an emotional connection with. And we don’t see enough of that honesty in EB. A more emotive, transparent tone can really set an employer apart.

Chris Hoyt: Jimmy, do you think employer brands should be aspirational?

Jimmy McCourt: I do. Aspirational, yes—but grounded in truth. It’s okay to talk about where you want to go, as long as you’re also honest about where you are.

Gerry Crispin: The problem is when companies exaggerate the experience. EB and RM professionals need to keep it authentic and back it with data. You can’t just sell a dream—you’ve got to deliver on it.

Chris Hoyt: There were also a lot of discussions around metrics. You brought up the “sprint vs. marathon” view—can you elaborate?

Jimmy McCourt: Credit to Nicole Fritz for that analogy. The idea is short-term wins (sprints) vs. long-term goals (marathons). EB metrics are harder to quantify compared to RM, but they’re equally important. I think the long game for EB is retention and engagement. If your brand messaging aligns with reality, employees will stick around longer.

Gerry Crispin: Agreed. One metric I’d love to see is whether new hires feel their expectations matched reality after six months. That would tell you a lot about your authenticity.

Chris Hoyt: Totally. Final question, Jimmy—what’s one big takeaway for orgs that want better alignment between EB and RM?

Jimmy McCourt: Start with education. We don’t even have consistent definitions across EB and RM professionals, so imagine explaining it to someone outside the space. Define your terms, clarify your goals, and bring people along. That’s how collaboration starts.

Chris Hoyt: Well said. Alignment only really works when HR, marketing, and TA work together and speak the same language.

Gerry Crispin: Exactly. Set a baseline. Understand the differences in perception, then align on outcomes. That’s how we win.

Chris Hoyt: Alright, Jimmy—you don’t get off easy. Got a dad joke for us?

Jimmy McCourt: Do you want to hear a pizza joke? Never mind… it’s too cheesy.

Chris Hoyt: That’s a groaner—perfect.

Jimmy McCourt: Groan factor is a measure of success, right?

Chris Hoyt: I’ve got one. Why did the marketer break up with the calendar?

Jimmy McCourt: Why?

Chris Hoyt: She was all about the dates and numbers.

Gerry Crispin: Okay, okay—what do lawyers wear to court?

Chris Hoyt: Hit us.

Gerry Crispin: Lawsuits.

Chris Hoyt: Three groans! Nailed it.

Jimmy, if this project were a book, what would the title be?

Jimmy McCourt: Fast Times at Employment Brand High: The Life and Times of EB and RM.

Chris Hoyt: Fantastic. Jimmy, thank you for all your work on this. For those interested, head over to cxr.works/research to get notified when the report drops and sign up to participate in future panels. These are in-depth, four to five-week projects, and we’re always looking for thoughtful voices.

Gerry Crispin: Thanks, everyone. See you next time.

Chris Hoyt: Take care.

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