New Approaches to TA Problems

Chris Hoyt: I noticed this morning that Gerry’s workspace is a little more expansive than usual. Are you remote from a hotel, Gerry?

Gerry Crispin: Yeah, I’m remote at a hotel. I found an empty ballroom and decided to take it over. Someone opened the door, saw me, and then closed it. I’m not sure what that meant, but we’re good.

Chris Hoyt: Acoustics are great. If he gets dragged out by hotel security, do not disconnect, Gerry. Do not turn off the laptop—I want you to carry it with you as they drag you out.

Gerry Crispin: Life is good. This is TA Week in San Diego. It’s kind of a call to kick off the year, and you get a sense of who’s able to come out and not be virtual. Clearly, all the cool kids are here—except for James. He should be here.

Chris Hoyt: I love that crowd more than any other in our space, but we need a better name than “the cool kids.” We’ve gotta come up with something else.

Gerry Crispin: You gotta help me. Maybe we need a new branding view.

Chris Hoyt: If only we had a branding guru on the line…

James Ellis: I don’t know anything about marketing. Never heard of it. What is that?

Chris Hoyt: All right. We’ve got a fun topic today. You guys ready to jump in?

Gerry Crispin: Let’s make it happen.

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Announcer: Welcome to the CXR channel, our premier podcast for talent acquisition and talent management. Listen in as the CXR community discusses a wide range of topics focused on attracting, engaging, and retaining the best talent. We’re glad you’re here.

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Chris Hoyt: Welcome everybody to the Recruiting Community podcast. We do this weekly and it’s a lot of fun. I am your host today, Ren, and I’m bringing in my co-host, Stimpy. How are you, Stimpy?

Gerry Crispin: (Muted) There we go. That was probably the problem—Stimpy. Yes.

Chris Hoyt: You’re in San Diego today. That’s exciting. Thanks for dialing in.

Gerry Crispin: Yep, it’s 70 degrees here. You don’t need a weather report—it’s always 70. Sometimes it rains, I hear, but never where I am.

Chris Hoyt: True story. We were once on a golf course, and the clouds literally parted for Gerry. I wish I was making that up.

We’ve got a fun show today. Our guest has not implanted microchips into recruiters’ brains—that’s next week. But he’s been working on a project he calls “The Definition of Insanity.” We’re going to dive into what that means in the world of recruiting.

Just a quick reminder: we’re streaming on YouTube, Facebook, LinkedIn. Go to cxr.works/podcast to see past and future episodes. This is an ad-free labor of love—Jerry and I do this because we enjoy having interesting guests and shining a light on their work.

If you’re with us live on LinkedIn, use the comments or chat. Say hello, ask questions, drop your LinkedIn profile—whatever you like.

Also, check out our new beta product directory at cxr.works/directory. It includes over 6,000 ratings on more than 330 products in TA. Built by and for our community, it’s free to use and full of peer-sourced insights.

Gerry Crispin: I think you said it all. That’s great.

Chris Hoyt: Let’s bring in James. James, how are you?

James Ellis: I’m good! How is everybody?

Chris Hoyt: Pretty good. Sorry about the microchip mix-up.

James Ellis: Hey, if you’re going to confuse me with Elon, I’ll take it. I just need to call my broker and start making announcements. I can work with that.

Chris Hoyt: Threaten to sell 25% of the show and we’re good. James, for folks who haven’t had the chance to meet you, give us an escalator pitch—who is James Ellis?

James Ellis: I’m a loudmouth in employer branding. I’ve been doing this for about 10 years—agency, in-house, consultant. I love this work. I live and breathe employer branding. I podcast, write, speak about it.

To me, employer branding is about helping people find a job they’ll be happy in. It’s not about finding the most applicants—it’s about finding the right match. And yes, I’m the “Employer Brand Nerd”—Google says so.

Chris Hoyt: You’ve arrived if Google says so.

James Ellis: If you Google “Who is the employer brand nerd?” my picture pops up. Fair warning.

Chris Hoyt: Depends on the picture! So talk to us about this new project—“Definition of Insanity.” What inspired it?

James Ellis: TA leaders keep saying the same things they were saying 10 years ago: “We don’t have a seat at the table. We’re a cost center.” But talent acquisition grows businesses. Period.

So I said, let’s break it all down—clean sheet. I brought in some great voices, not just from TA but from other fields. People like Rory Sutherland (read his book Alchemy), Jasmine Bina, Alex Smith—they all bring new thinking to our space.

It’s about getting people to think differently. The first episode goes live next week, and I’m pumped.

Gerry Crispin: I love it. We’ve spent 100 years trying to optimize a broken process. New tools, same questions, same flaws.

Even the best tech is answering the wrong question. We could use tools to engage all 100 applicants instead of narrowing it to five. But we keep shooting ourselves in the foot. We need to ask different questions. I hope your series does that.

James Ellis: I hope so too. It’s not about having all the answers. I just want to spark new conversations. Too many people say, “Well, what does Google do?” as if we’re all little Googles. That’s insane.

Chris Hoyt: I’m so tired of leaders saying, “What’s Amazon doing? What’s Google doing?” Like, come on.

James Ellis: You don’t become the best by copying the biggest. You have to find your own strategy, within your own constraints. Be the best chubby old basketball player you can be.

Chris Hoyt: So in your experience, what’s the most persistent problem in employer branding?

James Ellis: We define employer brand way too narrowly. Career sites, job postings, social media—and a junk drawer for everything else. But employer brand is everything. CEO behavior, the news, Glassdoor reviews—it’s all part of it.

If you’re still optimizing for “more applicants,” you’re missing the point. It’s not about dating more people—it’s about finding someone you want to marry.

Chris Hoyt: Yeah, and yet we still see TA trying to bring in as many applicants as possible, regardless of fit.

James Ellis: And it’s because we’ve absorbed the risk-averse culture of HR. HR is terrified to try anything new. I’ve shown people innovative ideas, and they ask, “But who else has done it?” That’s not how innovation works.

Chris Hoyt: So what do you recommend for TA leaders who are stuck?

James Ellis: Take a page from sales. Sales has a process, a pipeline, and predictability. Recruiting doesn’t. We don’t know how long anything takes. We’re not communicating with candidates. We’re not removing objections.

We should want people to want to work here. But we act like our goal is just to twist arms until they apply.

Chris Hoyt: So true. The best hires know what they’re getting into—and they choose us. That’s the shift.

James Ellis: Yes. Think strategy. Think about who you really want to hire and how to get them.

Chris Hoyt: With so many TA pros displaced, do you think that experience will change things once they’re back in roles?

James Ellis: I’d love to say yes. But memories are short. Even if you start with good intentions, the machine pulls you back in. The system encourages status quo.

Gerry Crispin: Change will probably come from external forces—candidate expectations, new laws, or something else disruptive.

Chris Hoyt: Change management is the least appreciated function in TA—and one that we desperately need.

James Ellis: I’ve seen leaders who don’t understand recruiting come in with fresh ideas. But too often, recruiters say, “They’ve never had a req—I don’t have to listen.” That attitude kills innovation.

Chris Hoyt: Jerry, same for you? You hear that a lot too?

Gerry Crispin: All the time. And they’re right—if you’re going to run the same broken playbook, you’d better understand it. But if you’re going to change it, you need to experience it or be open to learning fast.

Chris Hoyt: James, normally we ask guests to name a book they’d write about their experience. But since you’ve already done that… let’s try this: If you were to direct a sitcom about TA, what would it be called?

James Ellis: Oh wow. It’d be something dry and weird, like Requisition. Something where people go, “Is that even a real word?” But those who get it—would get it.

It’d be The Office meets The Good Place. People trying to do the best work possible in a broken system.

Chris Hoyt: I’d watch it. Wouldn’t pay for it, but I’d watch it.

James Ellis: It’ll be on the free ad-supported streaming network. Guaranteed.

Chris Hoyt: Alright James, for folks who want to find you, where should they go?

James Ellis: Best place is employerbranding.org. That’s where all my resources are—free and otherwise.

Chris Hoyt: We’ll throw that link up. And thanks again, James. We really appreciate your time today.

James Ellis: Back at you. Thanks for having me.

Chris Hoyt: Alright, everybody, we’ll see you next week. CXR.works/podcast—super easy. Take care.

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