S5 E42 | Recruiting Community: Kathryn Petralia and When Equity Doesn’t Create Equity

🎧 Show Notes

Transcripts and/or show notes

Gerry Crispin, CXR 
25 years, you’ll learn not to talk about any of that shit.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 0:03
I have to tell you my elbows hurting lately, and I want to blame tennis, but I haven’t played any tennis.

Kathryn Petralia, Keep Financial 0:10
I don’t play tennis, but I lift weights and so you can get it from lifting weights too. So it doesn’t matter. Whatever.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 0:16
You don’t think it’s from leaning like this on my mouse hand, like just what I’m like I’m all over the internet and doing stuff.

Kathryn Petralia, Keep Financial 0:22
Wouldn’t you rather say it’s from like golf or weightlifting.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 0:26
That’s what I would rather say that Katherine, I just don’t I just don’t know it’s true. But I would rather I would much rather say that.

Kathryn Petralia, Keep Financial 0:33
I have one book story for you. And I don’t know if you’ve read any of Michael Lewis’ books, like Moneyball, or The Big Short or whatever. I’ve only read a couple of them. Did, he has been sequestered with RBF, the FTX guy, and I don’t know if you’ve been following the like, FTX kerfuffle, which is bigger than a kerfuffle. But I have been. I know, I know. I’ve been really bearish on on crypto and defi for a really long time. So I am the schadenfreude that I’m experiencing is a little embarrassing, even to myself. But, but I why I learned that Michael Lewis has been embedded with him for six months. And he came out of it. And he was like, This guy’s amazing. He’s like, doing all this great work. And it’s so impressive and important. And that was the book he was going to write. So now I wonder what the actual book is gonna say after he came out of that experience thinking that he was really amazing.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 1:25
Well, I shouldn’t say kid, but he’s like, in his 30s. Right, early, early 30s, early

Kathryn Petralia, Keep Financial 1:30
30 he is 30. When he started the company in 2019. He was, Well, I think he was 20 I think it was 26. It was whatever he had. That’s a crazy 1010 You know, and a $10 billion. He was the wealthiest, yet the youngest wealthiest person when you look at the one of the top 10 wealthy people in the world. I mean, well,

Chris Hoyt, CXR 1:52
I mean, I’m all in on the I’m all in on the subject. Like I have some bitcoin that I you know, I have some crypto art I find it fascinating the conversations of how blockchain could penetrate into HR, or how it should be, you know, working through the recruitment process, all that so fascinating to me, and so fun. But I haven’t seen a lot of that rubber hitting the road. And then when this hit the news in the last week or so it’s I mean, there’s not enough news coverage. In the morning, I’m drinking coffee in the morning watching TV. There’s not enough of it on the TV. I have to I have to go online to figure out what’s happening.

Kathryn Petralia, Keep Financial 2:23
I only heard about so I listen to NPR on my way to work in the morning and I only have a seven minute commute. So I don’t hear a lot but I was surprised that this morning was the first time I’d heard them cover it. I was like, I feel like you should have been talking about this before NPR like this big deal.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 2:35
Anyway, yeah. Yeah, you would think All right, well, are we are we ready to jump in because we’re going to talk about equity and and equity.

Kathryn Petralia, Keep Financial 2:44
I’m ready.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 2:45
Okay well here we go.

CXR Announcer 2:47
Welcome to the CXR channel, our premier podcasts for Talent Acquisition and Talent Management. listen in as the CXR community discusses a wide range of topics focused on attracting, engaging and retaining the best talent. We’re glad you’re here.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 3:17
All right, everybody. I’m Chris Hoyt. I’m your host today for the CXR recruiting community podcast, I’m just gonna give you a really quick introduction as we set this up, because the other introductions, they’re just old, and we’re moving into a new year, we’re gonna go faster. So if you didn’t already know, we’re live streaming on LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, and of course, CXR.works/podcast. If you are with us live, please drop a note. Say hello. Ask any questions you’ve got for our guests today in the live chat. And you’ll see that on some of those streams. If you can do that, we will do our best to bring you into the conversation as well as just give you a little mention, we got a fancy new tool that allows us to just put put an overlay up there that says who said what, on the site. So we’ll do our best to acknowledge that and say hello, I want to jump right in today because we’ve got an interesting topic today around equity. And we’re going to talk to our friend Kathryn, who’s coming in. Let me pull Gerry in from the green room. Gerry. Say hello to everybody. Hello, everybody. There we go. And there’s Kathryn. She’s in the spotlight window. Kathryn, how are you?

Kathryn Petralia, Keep Financial 4:15
Hi, good. How are you?

Chris Hoyt, CXR 4:17
Great thanks for joining. Where are you seated? Where are you joining us from?

Kathryn Petralia, Keep Financial 4:21
I’m standing actually in Atlanta, Georgia right now.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 4:24
Nice. Well, that will help no tennis knee. That way it’ll help. It’s good for posture and I don’t know how your elbow. Fair with that. For those who are here early. Kathryn, why don’t you give us what I like to call an escalator pitch. So for those who may not know who Kathryn is, or Keep Financial for that matter, why don’t you just kind of give us that two minute pitch of who you are and a little bit of background so that we know why we should be paying attention to what you have to say today.

Kathryn Petralia, Keep Financial 4:49
Sure, thanks. Um, my co founder Rob and I started Keep earlier this year after selling our last company called Cabbage to American Express and we grew that company Up to about 600 people. And then we’re within American Express for almost two years after that. And we had a lot of experience working with our teams to manage compensation. And competition is a really big topic. And it’s important because everybody works for money. So what we’ve realized is that everybody was coming to their employer in a different place with different experiences with different needs, but they’re all getting paid the same way. And we have this idea that we could create an opportunity for employers to provide upfront compensation to their employees, that vest over time, just like equity vests, but giving employees more access to it earlier in their careers. And that’s what it is.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 5:43
I love that. So when we talked about throwing up this podcast, right, we talked about the topic of like when equity doesn’t drive equity. And I want to just set the stage because our audience, we have a humble, humble audience, we get a couple 1000 downloads, I think once post once it goes up versus the stream. But it’s kind of an interesting thing, because most of them, we believe, are in that recruiting window, right? They are recruiters themselves. And one of the things I think, even as a former recruiter that drives us a little nuts is negotiating and trying to figure you know, going to go into bat with comp and trying to make things right, and just getting approval and do it doing what we’ve got to do to sort of get that offer and get that candidate across the finish line. So comp is not a sexy topic for recruiters by and large, but it is something that we’re seeing more and more recruiters, I think sort of dip into and pay more attention to and certainly with a lot of the laws being passed on pay transparency, and that sort of thing. It is continuing to float up. And I think it’s going to be huge, huge topic into next year. Would you agree with that for as it goes forward in our space.

Kathryn Petralia, Keep Financial 6:45
100%. And especially as you know, people are a couple of there’s a couple factors influencing that, first of all, you had the great resignation and the war on talent. And people now are distributed all over the country and all over the world. So they have an opportunity to work for lots of different companies that they may not have been able to work for prior. And people are also team wanting to take control and new people younger people are coming into the workforce. And they’re looking for agency and autonomy in the way they work and how they get paid.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 7:14
So when you when you say the phrase, equity doesn’t drive equity, what does that mean to you, Kathryn?

Kathryn Petralia, Keep Financial 7:22
I think because I come from, you know, a series of tech startups, where you have this idea when you start a company that equity is important that giving your employees access to options and other ways to sort of align their behavior with with you with the employer is really, really important. And so a lot of companies and we did this to give everybody in the company equity, of course, the more senior people get more, and the less senior people get less, so everyone doesn’t have the same amount of equity. The other challenge is that most people don’t have an ability to create to change the outcome or influence the outcome. And a lot of people wait a long time to get access to that equity. And the next thing that happens is as people stay with companies longer, it actually, it’s like the most expensive you can think you can do is stay loyal to a company that provides compensation and equity, because you usually don’t get more, we have people who are with us for 10 years. And while you did give them some more, you give them less and less as the company grows. And so I think at the end, by the time a transaction happens, let’s say in our case, 10 years later, so people have been waiting a long time to monetize the value of that equity. And if they had had a choice, and could have taken cash compensation sooner, they might have been able to invest that and do other things with it that would not only have improved the quality of their lives, but may have had a different financial outcome that could have been better.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 8:43
And so where should we you know, without any pitch on Keep Financial, in your mind, where does you know, where does that that employee stand? Or how does this crossover, you know, into that recruiting space is an issue of asking for more early on isn’t saying, I’m out when when I don’t think that I’m being treated fairly like what’s the course of action, you think that, you know, the the everyday employee can sort of take and push towards with this?

Kathryn Petralia, Keep Financial 9:11
Well, if at the end of the day, everyone works for money. And so the reason people show up every day in front of their computers in their offices, wherever they’re working, they do because they’re getting paid. And so what we presume and have presumed for the many, many, many centuries that we’ve been compensating people is that everybody should get paid the same way. We just haven’t had an ability to customize compensation in a way that works for individual needs. And you might have four people who were doing the same job, but they all come from a different position. Some of them are older, some are younger, some have families, some don’t some have student debt, some of them don’t, some of them like a travel, some of them don’t everybody is in a different place. And they may want their compensation to reflect that. So I think as as HR leaders, especially when you’re looking at attracting and retaining talent Figuring out ways to be flexible with compensation is one way to make sure that you find and keep the best talent.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 10:07
But but you know, I’ve got a real question here for you too, because you’re talking about the individual, and how they perceive that just in the context of what they need to put food on the table to get some wealth and all of that kind of stuff. But they’re also in the context of work with a lot of other people. And I really like your take on the fact that my perception of what’s fair, in part is based upon what I know about what other people like me are also getting. And if it’s a lot more or a lot less, it impacts my perception on whether I’m being fairly treated.

Kathryn Petralia, Keep Financial 10:48
And what’s interesting is this is always surprise me that people talk about how much money they make I just, every time I find out that someone had a conversation with a colleague, and like, what was going on with you? Like, why would you do this? I just find it so bizarre, but I know that they do talk about it. And it’s really frustrating for teams who are managing compensation, because you want to make sure that everything is fair and equitable. I think that people would find it more fair, and Shopify did this recently, actually, they announced that they’re going to allow their employees to decide how much they get in equity versus cash compensation versus if we have to worry about having that conversation about with their colleague about how much they’re getting paid, because everyone is doing it differently, that conversation starts to look a little bit different. The conversation looks a little more like, Well, what do you do about equity? How much should you take, you know, what percentage you can talk about it in ways that aren’t quite as I would say, demotivating? When people learn more about how much other people make?

Chris Hoyt, CXR 11:52
Yeah, I think that I think the topic of transparency and you know, with compensation is complicated, right? We it’s really easy for us to say we should throw, you know, salaries into job postings, we see a people already kind of skirting the intent of that by putting these $200,000 pay gap for bait, pay steps right in that posting. But I think there’s a lot of two point earlier it kind of, I think there’s a lot of nuance in determining how we make an offer and what we offer a candidate. And one thing that I think a lot of the regulations aren’t addressing is the total comp, aspect to right versus just this, this transparency into base salary.

Kathryn Petralia, Keep Financial 12:35
Totally agree. And this, this other interesting thing happens with base compensation, which is when when when it’s a very competitive job market, all of a sudden base salaries go through the roof. And then what happens is the people who stayed with you are feel like they’re not being paid fairly, because new people came in doing the same job or similar job and they’re making more money, and then you wind up leveling everybody up. If if you use different tools to compete in a job market, other than based compensation, then it allows you to, you know, sort of manage your fixed expenses, with a little more predictability. And then, you know, use other tools, whether it’s equity or other forms of cash compensation, to manage the fluctuations in value.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 13:21
Yeah, you know, it’s an interesting conversation I spoke with. I spoke with the talent leader maybe about a month or so ago, and they said they had done a complete internal analysis of how could they get to true equity, from a compensation standpoint for their existing employees across the board. And they said in one year to get there, they could do it in one year. And Gerry has a stat I always forget what the years but it was a 70 years or 700, what is it?

Gerry Crispin, CXR 13:45
Oh, that was World Economic Forum that was a little bit broader than just salary. But it basically said that gender equity at best would not take place in the United States for another 65 years.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 13:58
Yeah. So this organization says, and their financial institutions are not small, so that they could get to internal pay equity across the board in one year. But it would cost them $17 million. Which is quite staggering. I mean, I don’t know who that’s I mean, you need more details, but I don’t know who that speaks more about.

Kathryn Petralia, Keep Financial 14:19
What is that as a percentage of their budget? I don’t know. You know, how many people are impacted? It’s hard to know

Chris Hoyt, CXR 14:24
what’s interesting, but that apparently is sitting on in the C suite desk somewhere for consideration as do they do they do it in a year? Do they take their time over five years? Or to Gerry stat that he shared from the WCF? Is it is it 70 years let’s just pace it out to

Gerry Crispin, CXR 14:40
All those the all those people who are telling each other how much they’re making, just form a union and and start something up.

Kathryn Petralia, Keep Financial 14:49
It’s funny you should say that because I’ve been saying that about what I what I call young people because I’m old, but I feel like the people who are newer to the job market have effectively over the last couple of years unionized So without doing so formally, and you see the play out, I think, especially with return to office, that people are saying, I’m gonna go into the office, I like working from home, I’m doing my thing the way I want to do it. And if you make me go back to the office, I’m gonna go find another job. And so I think that’s been a really interesting turn of events are how employees are taking control of how they want to work. And I think we’re going to see it happening more and more with how they want to get paid.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 15:28
I think if we really understand what outputs are in a corporation, and obviously it gets very complex in some areas, but where we can understand what the output is, we could we could work much more fairly, in terms of identifying what you get for that output, and what control you have over, over where and when, and how you do that to make that output take place.

Kathryn Petralia, Keep Financial 15:55
So do you see more of it when people feel like they have agency and autonomy? Do you see that there’s more out but sorry, Chris, I didn’t mean to interrupt you.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 16:03
No, no, that’s fine. You’re the guest, you can interrupt either of us all you want? Yeah. I get my question, I guess, to you as sort of the professional an expert in this space. And looking at this through your lens, who would you give? What advice do are you? Are you leaning towards telling employers Hey, you know, get your get your shop in order make this right, use these tools? Are you leaning towards telling the candidates are the employees Hey, you know, you got to do what’s right for you. And when the market is safe for you, you should move and get that 20% bump? What do you tell? What do you tell the world? Kathryn, what’s your advice?

Kathryn Petralia, Keep Financial 16:43
I think there are three things, I think the first thing you need to do is talk to your people, talk to your employees, and find out what they want, find out where they’re happy, where they’re not happy with their compensation, and find out and ask them open ended questions like How would you like to be compensated? What’s important to you? Is it more important to you to work fewer hours and get paid the same amount is more important to you to feel like you are, you know, part of the team and your interests are aligned because you have equity, ask them how they want to get paid. I think that is a really interesting is a really interesting way to learn more about your workforce, especially as it continues change as all of them do. I think the second thing you have to think about is, what is the actual cost of the compensation that you provide? If you if you provide, if you provide bonuses, how hard is it to go through the process to figure out what the bonuses should be that they’re fair that people did the work that they were supposed to do? What’s the cost of going through that process, then also for equity, the same thing, whether you’re talking about a public company or private company, what’s the actual cost most CFOs will tell you that they had an opportunity to clean up their cap tables and give fewer options and go to the board less often to ask for more. They’d be really happy about that. So I think there there are other components as well. And then I think, I think the last thing is to look at the market and figure out, you know, what are other companies that are innovating in this space doing? What are the new trends that you’re seeing? What are some other I mean, maybe what people want is, like 10 grand a year to go fly wherever they want to go to do which I don’t know, I don’t know what what the various what the various things are, but find ways that you can meet your employees where they are, we had this really interesting thing that happened at cabbage. We noticed, especially in the last few years, that our frontline folks, people who are answering the phone talking to customers, they were usually your younger workforce, they were newer to the job market. And they also were they’ve made less money. And so they started saying in town hall, which we had every week, we would introduce new people. And they would say their fun facts. What we found is in this population of employees, their fun fact became their side hustle. And all of these folks had businesses on the side that they were running, and they wanted to take these jobs, because it gave them an opportunity to continue to do their side hustle, but have benefits and you know, and still have a regular paycheck and they can invest in their side hustle, maybe something that we do is say, hey, employees, we support your side hustle. And here’s 10 grand to do your side hustle, you know, whatever it may be that you can have flexible working options, because we know you have a side hustle, whatever it is that is important to your employees needs to be important to you even if it doesn’t make sense because like me, you’re 52 years old, and you’re like just go to work and do your job. You know.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 19:27
I mean, I love that and what what you stimulated when you were talking about that was one of our one of the folks who’s really very good in recruiting a couple years ago was offered a great job in a fairly large company and was sent a contract that basically said, you know, you get to work for us, and you can’t do anything else is really what it said. And she ripped it up and rewrote the contract that said no, here’s my side hustles here’s what I do when I’m not doing your work and I’ll do your work. But you’ve got to let me do my side hustle. And they sign that contract. And I went, Oh, man, that’s a different world, clearly. And you’re you’re you’re confirming that there’s an awful lot of possibilities here that we may not have tapped in more traditional organizations that kind of says, Well, if you’re using us for 40 hours a week, we don’t want you to do anything else. Because, you know, we think that could dilute what we’re getting from you.

The 40 hours, there’s a lot more hours in a week than 40. Right. so there is pleanty of time for your side hussle.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 20:39
Yeah, well, didn’t Mr. Musk, just tell everybody get ready for 80 hour weeks back in the office, and no more free lunch for you?

Gerry Crispin, CXR 20:46
So he’s redefining not exempt?

Chris Hoyt, CXR 20:49
I think he’s redefining asshole. Yeah, for sure. We Okay, so we do have a chat that just came up somebody on LinkedIn. So Kathryn, I’ll read this to you, it says realize that total reward, and I’m sorry, your name has not shown up on the feed, or I’d call you out but realize that total reward is interpreted by the employee based on the personal consumption of the employee, an individual who had a partner who also works and benefit enrollment is done through that partner has a different view of their rewards package from their employer than their peer, who makes the same on wage but engages other parts of the reward portfolio. Well put equity does come with access first, but engagement of those options is very personal. But what would you say?

Kathryn Petralia, Keep Financial 21:33
Totally agree. I think that’s super consistent with what we’ve been saying, you know, everybody comes to a company from a different place with different needs, including how they get paid.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 21:45
Yeah, well, I think the individuality like that, that raises a really good point, LinkedIn user, sorry about that, it raises a really good point, like, for instance, I was paying for my own benefits for a number of years here at CareerXroads, right? As independent and I am now on my partner’s benefits. So I, you know, there’s a very different scenario there, then I would not have even thought of before, right, and it means my needs are now different from CareerXroads than they were previously. And I have very different expectations of what my benefits may need to be.

Kathryn Petralia, Keep Financial 22:19
And if you if you do that, if you change your benefits and your employer, let’s say, we’ll pay for your benefits, but you’re using your spouse’s or your partners, because that is better than what your employer can provide. You’re still thinking to yourself, hmm, they’d be spending $1000 a month on me on insurance, but they’re not. So like, what’s up, man? Why don’t why don’t I get some of that? Where’s, where’s the where’s the customer money?

Chris Hoyt, CXR 22:43
Yeah, I think that’s a great call out like you get, here’s just set amount of money. And you can spend it however you want for your own internal. But Is anybody doing that? I haven’t heard of anybody sort of taking that stance of either you?

Unknown Speaker 22:55
I think you see effort. Right, I think you see efforts being made to help people better understand what the what the benefits costs are, and the extent to which you’re using a fair amount of those. But I haven’t really seen anybody just say, you know, here’s a pool. And you know, check the boxes that make use of the pool. And if you go beyond that, then you’re paying pieces of that for yourself.

Kathryn Petralia, Keep Financial 23:25
I’ll give you another example, which is 401, k’s and student loans. People, a lot of young people who are new to the job market are not participating in their 401 K program, they’re matching 401k program at their employer, because they can’t afford it because they’re paying off their student loans. There’s no equivalent to that, that you can get to say, Hey, I’m going to use that matching amount to pay off my student loans. You just don’t get the benefit.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 23:51
I thought it was Andrew Gadomski who made that?

Chris Hoyt, CXR 23:53
I just saw a pop up good to see good to see in the text about the you Andrew. Yeah, that is a really interesting sort of argument of what it would be fascinating for some numbers, not maybe we’re talking to you, Andrew, to crunch those numbers and kind of see what what would be the net net at the end of a solution like that for an organization of X size, Y size? Do they save money? Is it just net? Equally every everything breaks even from that standpoint? And then what happens I would imagine to the organization’s culture is are you creating loyalty with that? And then, of course, you know, transferring into retention and that sort of thing.

Kathryn Petralia, Keep Financial 24:33
And it is important, I mean, they’re, most of the things that you see today with total rewards are there’s not a retention built in, per se. There’s retention if there are RSUs, or options or other forms of equity issued that normally carries a retention component. And bonus is only retention if you wait long enough to get your bonus but we all know that people are more likely to stay when there’s something they have to give back rather than something might happen in the future. So, you know, I think that’s an important point measuring the retention value of the various compensation options that you make available to your employees.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 25:13
Interesting. Kathryn, I’m gonna ask her out of out of the left blue sky, I’m gonna ask you a question we hadn’t talked about. Anecdotally, Gerry and I have been talking to a number of folks who are ready for a move. And then obviously, we’ve been talking to countless folks who are being forced into a move right now. Right, but the job market being what it is, but but we are seeing anecdotally, at the director level, candidates are starting to ask about their exit when being hired on because, yes, comp is important. But people are also now trying to maybe I think my interpretation of this is they’re starting to take a stance on their stability. And so whereas normally we see these golden parachutes at the C suite, I think at the director level, now we’re starting to see some people say, Well, what happens if you decide you over hired and I’m out in a year? Well, how will you take care of me? What guarantees do I have please put those in writing here? So are you also seeing anything like that? Or rumba rumbling stuff like that yet? Or is it? Is it early days? Or are we just seeing some crazy, some crazy chat with our friends?

Kathryn Petralia, Keep Financial 26:13
It really is. So driven by industry, I think, you know, in the tech environment, in particular, people are more likely to ask for more, because there’s just it’s historically, I think, those entities have been more flexible, and, and frankly, provided more rich compensation packages, probably than others may have. And it depends on the role that you have the level that you are having two years of experience. I think, because there’s been this, this strategy that a lot of employees have had over the last, I would say, six years, six to eight years, that laddering, where they, you know, they leave their jobs every two years, because they’re moving up in the organization. So they’ll take a stretch job at a tech company. And then they’ll parlay that into the same role in a bear company where they can demonstrate that they actually know how to do it, then they move up to a better job at a tech company. That’s a stretch job, and they keep moving back and forth. And I think people who have that mentality aren’t as likely to ask for something, and when they leave, because they are probably going to be the ones doing the leaving before they get laid off.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 27:17
Yeah, interesting. Well, okay. So Kathryn, I want to thank you so much for your time today. But before we let you go, I have to ask you the question that we ask all of our guests, Kathryn, if you were going to write a book about this topic about the state of things today, what what would you title that book?

Kathryn Petralia, Keep Financial 27:34
I think I would call it We all work for money.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 27:39
We all work for money. Okay, and here’s my follow up question. Who gets the first signed copy?

Kathryn Petralia, Keep Financial 27:48
Obviously, you do. Since you asked the question.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 27:51
It’s so nice. I think listeners you got I think you guys are listening to the show before and it’s starting to take off.

Kathryn Petralia, Keep Financial 27:58
Has anybody written a book?

Chris Hoyt, CXR 28:00
Yeah, just give the book to Chris or Gerry? It’ll be fine.

Kathryn Petralia, Keep Financial 28:04
Books are too long. It’s been my observation, especially business books. They’re way too long. My we all work from anything, I would say 70 pages max.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 28:16
I’m thinking somewhere between 70 pages of the Tic Tok video for me, that’s a kind of need a little bit.

Kathryn Petralia, Keep Financial 28:22
Good point I’ll work on I’ll have to have my tic tac game for that.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 28:25
I can’t get I can’t do the TIC tock. I just can’t there’s I gotta draw a line somewhere. Look, Kathryn, thank you so much, much gratitude. We’re so grateful that you joined the show today. And we could share for those. I hope you noticed Kathryn’s LinkedIn profile, you can get on there and jump in. I’m just gonna, I’m just gonna say thank you to everybody who dialed in and listened. This will be up on the old Spotify and all those other places that you listen to shortly, I want to remind anybody who is hanging with us or listening in or you’re on your treadmill, your Stairmaster or whatever, we got a lot going on at CXR.works/events, you can see what’s ahead as we round out the year. And I want to remind you to if you or somebody that you know, in the recruiting space has been displaced or is looking for a job change. We have a job board up at cxr.works/jobs. There are as of this morning, over 200 recruiting jobs around the world, a lot of them are virtual, and they’re at some pretty reputable companies if we do say so ourselves. So I would encourage you to check those out. And if you’re not in that market, please take that link and pass that on into your network because we’re just recruiters trying to help recruiters. So with that, I want to thank everybody and we’re just gonna say we are out of here. Bye, everybody.

Kathryn Petralia, Keep Financial 29:36
Bye bye. Thanks so much.

CXR Announcer 29:39
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