Mapping Durable Skills Across North America

Chris Hoyt: All right. So Jerry, you just got back from somewhere, I hear?

Gerry Crispin: Rumor has it. I tried to put a few things on Facebook and LinkedIn—some good pictures of Vietnam. I had some crazy people with me, and you know, we didn’t become communists or socialists or democratic socialists while we were there.

But we found a vibrant group of people—58 million of them—doing incredible things. I was really impressed. It’s an interesting place, and to be honest with you, since I’ve also been in Singapore, I think Vietnam offers an alternative as a hub for Asia that I didn’t realize was going to be so competitive. But it really is.

Chris Hoyt: Fascinating. I know we’ve got some stuff coming up where you’re going to interview a few of the folks who were on that trip. Caitlin, have you been to Vietnam?

Caitlin MacGregor: I have been. I love it. We work with a lot of customers who have teams in Vietnam. It’s definitely a growing, competitive market and a great place to visit.

Chris Hoyt: I’m so jealous. It’s a bucket list destination for me. I’ve wanted to go for ages. Well, after Japan—you’re about to go to Japan!

Caitlin MacGregor: I don’t think you’re allowed to be jealous of anybody right now.

Chris Hoyt: Yeah, right. Japan’s not bad. I’m really excited. I’ve got a fun dinner planned for work, but the rest of it’s just going to be hanging out. My oldest kid and her husband are going with my wife and me. Four days in Tokyo, five days in Kyoto—we’re going to have a great time.

Caitlin MacGregor: I’m jealous. My bucket list is to take my two kids and my husband to Thailand. My husband and I have been three times because we used to teach English in China, so it was easy to get there. Now the kids are old enough, and I want to take them.

Gerry Crispin: I just want to know if you’re going to do turkey sushi on Thanksgiving. That’s all.

Chris Hoyt: Turkey sushi? Odds are not looking good, but I’ll look for it while I’m there. All right, turkey sushi aside—which makes me throw up in my mouth a little—are we ready to get started?

Announcer: Welcome to the Recruiting Community Podcast, the go-to channel for talent acquisition leaders and practitioners. This show is brought to you by CXR, a trusted community of thousands connecting the best minds in the industry to explore topics like attracting, engaging, and retaining top talent. Hosted by Chris Hoyt and Gerry Crispin, we’re thrilled to have you join the conversation.

Chris Hoyt: Welcome to the Recruiting Community Podcast. I’m Chris Hoyt, president of CXR, and I’m here with Gerry Crispin, co-founder of CXR. We’re your hosts, bringing industry insights through fun conversations. Gerry, how are you?

Gerry Crispin: I’m fine. We’re talking about durable skills today, and I’m excited about it. There’s a new release from our friend and CXR member Caitlin MacGregor, who’s here with us. Caitlin, hi!

Caitlin MacGregor: Hi! Thanks for having me on the show. I’m so excited—it’s been a while.

Chris Hoyt: It has. So let’s jump in. I’m excited because there’s a map I want to show, but first, can you give us the escalator pitch? Who are you, what’s Plum, and why should talent acquisition leaders care?

Caitlin MacGregor: I’m the CEO and co-founder of Plum. We measure durable skills, which are crucial in today’s skills-based hiring and organizational strategies. People often focus on perishable skills like Excel or Python, but what truly predicts performance and helps you stay AI-ready are skills like innovation, communication, and execution.

We started Plum 14 years ago to modernize assessments with great science and great user experience. Our platform helps individuals gain self-awareness and helps employers match people to roles where they’ll thrive—boosting performance, revenue, and retention.

Chris Hoyt: I love that. Let me tell a quick story: at our CXR meetings, we’ve had everyone complete a Plum assessment ahead of time. What people may not realize is we use those assessments to determine seating arrangements. Anecdotally, we saw about a 25% increase in engagement when we balanced tables based on Plum profiles.

Caitlin MacGregor: I don’t know how people hire or manage teams without this kind of data. Once I learned about industrial-organizational psychology, it was like putting on glasses. There’s a whole science to understanding how people perform at work, and yet, HR often doesn’t use it.

Chris Hoyt: And it’s true—there’s a disconnect between IO psychologists and HR practitioners. You go to conferences, and they don’t overlap.

Caitlin MacGregor: Exactly. That’s why we’ve worked to make the science more accessible. The education sector has already moved away from talking about “hard” and “soft” skills. They talk about durable and perishable skills. We’re starting to see that language move into L&D and now, hopefully, into HR.

Gerry Crispin: Although sometimes I think all my skills have perished.

Chris Hoyt: Jerry, what are you talking about? You’re not a piece of baloney.

Caitlin MacGregor: Jerry’s been one of the biggest advocates because he knows this science matters. There’s a real opportunity here to shift how we talk about skills.

Chris Hoyt: So let’s talk about the Durable Skills Index you launched. There’s a map showing regional strengths—very cool. Can you tell us about the methodology?

Caitlin MacGregor: Sure. The Durable Skills Index maps the top durable skills in cities across the US and Canada. It’s based on over 2.5 million data points from Plum assessments, covering 82 cities. We analyze things like problem-solving, how people work with others, and how they get things done.

We also match these traits to job categories using the O*NET database to highlight what roles align with those top regional skills. It’s all grounded in validated behavioral science.

Gerry Crispin: I assume you could slice this by industry or function too, right?

Caitlin MacGregor: Absolutely. For example, in the Northeast, persuasion and conflict resolution are dominant. In the Midwest, it’s innovation and teamwork. On the West Coast, communication and curiosity shine.

Chris Hoyt: I checked Austin—diversity, communication, and persuasion. Felt very accurate.

Caitlin MacGregor: And you can compare that with nearby cities to see how they differ. It’s interactive and free to explore on plum.io, and anyone can take their own Plum profile for free too.

Chris Hoyt: Are you hearing from leaders who are using this for workforce planning?

Caitlin MacGregor: Yes. One great example is from Aurora Health. They used Plum to build community trust and recruit people who might not have traditional healthcare backgrounds but had the right durable skills. They even have a mobile bus where people can take the Plum assessment on-site.

Gerry Crispin: I’d love to see a panel on use cases like that.

Caitlin MacGregor: It’s all about personalizing the experience and making hiring more human. Whether it’s high-touch or high-volume, this data lets companies differentiate themselves and improve outcomes.

Chris Hoyt: So Caitlin, if you were going to write a book on this topic, what would the title be?

Caitlin MacGregor: “Durable Skills of the Future.” I think it’s time to move away from “hard” and “soft” and adopt this new vocabulary in HR.

Gerry Crispin: Tagline: “Don’t Perish.”

Chris Hoyt: That’s the best callback Jerry’s had all year! So Caitlin, who gets the first signed copy?

Caitlin MacGregor: My boys. I keep pushing this work because I want them to be happy and fulfilled in their careers. This data helps people find roles where they can thrive.

Chris Hoyt: Love that. Caitlin, thank you so much for joining us. We’ll drop the link for the Durable Skills Index so folks can check it out themselves.

Caitlin MacGregor: Thank you so much for having me. I loved the conversation.

Chris Hoyt: All right, everybody. Visit cxr.works/podcast for past and upcoming episodes. Hit like and subscribe. Let’s make Jerry internet famous!

Announcer: Thanks for listening to the Recruiting Community Podcast, where talent acquisition leaders connect, learn, and grow together. Visit cxr.works/podcast to explore past episodes, see what’s coming up next, and find out how to join the conversation. Want to be a guest? We’d love to hear from you. Learn more about joining the CXR community at www.cxr.works. See you next time.