S5 E43 | Recruiting Community: Charlotte Cantu, Talent Acquisition & Talent Management

Charlotte Cantu, Head of Talent Acquisition at Tokio Marine, shares what's different, and the same, between TA and Talent Management.

S5 E43 | Recruiting Community: Charlotte Cantu, Talent Acquisition & Talent Management

Charlotte Cantu, Head of Talent Acquisition at Tokio Marine, shares what's different, and the same, between TA and Talent Management.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 
You were absolutely missed in Chicago, it would have been fun. Like I said earlier, we definitely  stayed at just some, you know, half a star Spa Resort thing.  We did a little light, we brought in some chefs and did some iron chef competitions, salsa and a mixed drink. And

Gerry Crispin, CXR 0:23
They figured some way for all of us to win. So they thought all of us were, you know, Gen Z or something that we all had to get some.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 0:33
Wow, pulling no punches today. It’s Gerry Crispin.

Charlotte Cantu, Tokyo Marine 0:38
Like it, I like it. So yeah, I bet everyone was excited. It was the first one and a couple of years. So yeah, welcome back. For sure.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 0:47
I think everybody was giddy literally from you know, just being able to say, Oh, I see you. And you know, it’s not in a frame somewhere. You know,

Charlotte Cantu, Tokyo Marine 0:56

Chris Hoyt, CXR 0:57
Not just this big i

Charlotte Cantu, Tokyo Marine 0:58
Well hopefully multiple people challenged you all with coins from prior networking meetings?

Gerry Crispin, CXR 1:04
Yes. There was some challenges that is very true.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 1:09
Yeah, coins were out. It was it was good to see so many pants in one place. Which was nice. Like you know, in public again, we did give I think God, maybe that’s what you’re alluding to. We did give away jackets at this meeting.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 1:25
That’s true.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 1:25
Yeah. In addition to coins, the coins back but like CXR jackets, which were fun.

Charlotte Cantu, Tokyo Marine 1:31
All right. Yeah I missed out for sure.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 1:35
Yeah, whatever one. It was our 123 colloquium, even though we don’t use colloquium anymore, it’s it’s,

Chris Hoyt, CXR 1:42
I can’t spell it Gerry for seven years. I can’t spell Colloquium.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 1:48
I just I know, but I like to use a unique word. You know, that’s kind of cool.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 1:54
Yeah, no math and no spelling. That’s why I’m recruiting Come on.

Charlotte Cantu, Tokyo Marine 1:58
Well, that’s an awesome milestone. So congrats to the two of you. I know you’ve been You’ve done so much for the advancement of this industry. Getting us all kind of facing in the day we need to all be facing. So just thanks so much for continuing

Gerry Crispin, CXR 2:11
fun time. We’re still having fun.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 2:14
Well, you you’ve been a long time, yeah you’ve been a longtime part of that, Charlotte.

Charlotte Cantu, Tokyo Marine 2:19
Yeah, it’s been decades at least. Yeah,

Chris Hoyt, CXR 2:22
Yeah. Well, okay. So you’re ready to talk a little bit about what’s going on in your life now you’re ready to get started?

Charlotte Cantu, Tokyo Marine 2:27
Yeah, absolutely.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 2:29
Alright here we go.

CXR Announcer 2:31
Welcome to the CXR channel, our premier podcasts for Talent Acquisition and Talent Management. listen in as the CXR community discusses a wide range of topics focused on attracting, engaging and retaining the best talent. We’re glad you’re here.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 2:47
All right, everybody, welcome back to another edition of recruiting community podcast, I am your host, Chris Hoyt, President at CareerXroads. If you just dialing in or watching us or streaming us, for the first time ever, you’re welcome. We actually bring guests from all over the recruiting industry together to talk about what’s top of mind for them. We try to do it in these 20 minute conversations. They are light hearted. But we do tackle a couple of challenging topics here and there. But we do have a lot of fun with practitioners and these leaders and of course, these folks that are that are out doing the work and wanting to talk about what’s going on in the space. So we’re thankful that you joined with us. You can listen to us anywhere you listen to your favorite podcast, as well as social channels, LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube. I think we stream there live as well. If you’re just curious, and you’re looking for what’s next. And what we’ve done, we have the entire archive at CXR.works/podcast. Before we jump in, I want to remind everybody of a free resource that’s for our members we have created as well as our watchers and listeners and folks in the industry. And that is a recruiting jobs listing page. And that’s at CXR.works/jobs. If you have been impacted or displaced or someone in your network has been in your recruiter, and you’re looking to help or you’re looking for work. I think as of this morning, we had about 200+ jobs sitting on there and there for some pretty great companies. So we’d encourage you to check that out. And if it’s not you, if you are fortunate enough to be pretty stable, where you’re at in your organization, we’d ask that you take that link and share that with your network to folks who might be looking a lot of really good people out there that are looking for work right now. So with that, I want to go ahead and jump in. I’m gonna pull out of the green room with my magical greenroom pulling abilities. There’s Gerry, Gerry, say hello to everybody.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 4:41
Hello, everybody. Johnny Carson’s Ed McMahon, but other than that, we’re good.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 4:46
We should get you to kick him out. Here you can do that.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 4:51
We should try that. remembers who Johnny Carson or Ed McMahon is so it’s okay.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 4:58
Oh, why does this feel like it’s an Uncorked, and it’s actually just a regular podcast. All right, also our guest today, longtime CXR member and alumni, Charlotte, Charlotte, how are you?

Charlotte Cantu, Tokyo Marine 5:10
Doing well, doing well, I’m excited to be here. Thanks for having me.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 5:14
Love to do it. It’s so great to see your face. It’s so nice to connect with you. We’ve been in email for so long. For those maybe Charlotte who who don’t know who you are, who aren’t familiar with you? Why don’t you give us sort of an escalator pitch of who is Charlotte into and why should we be listening to her today?

Charlotte Cantu, Tokyo Marine 5:32
Sure, no, I appreciate that. So I have been in the talent acquisition and management space for gosh, now over 20 plus years worked for some very small organizations, very large organizations. And it wasn’t until a lot later in my career that I actually did get to where the talent management hat. So again, primarily in ta love it, as many of you are, it’s a passion of mine. And I would love to share a little bit more about the talent management side of my experience as we go forward today.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 6:05
I love that. So it’s interesting you say that. So you got 20 years of recruiting industry experience under under your belt, but you are just now I think right out about 30 days into Tokyo Marine, right? You’ve just met his 40 year old company insurance industry. And you’re the head of head of TA over there. How are things in your new job?

Charlotte Cantu, Tokyo Marine 6:28
Yes. So it’s been a very, very interesting, and I say that because I’ve already had the opportunity within my first month to get up in front of two very large audiences and talk about this very topic, which is the candidate landscape today, the continuing war for talent, as both of you know, what’s the term that was coined back in 1997. But we are certainly feeling its effects still today. In fact, I even said to the first audience that the the war for talent is very healthy, the candidate is winning the war right now. I am an example of what happens when people have options, and sometimes when things are changing, and shifting. So was that waste management for the last 10 years of my career, awesome company, fantastic people to work with, was not looking very happy and got a call from someone who had been in my network, again, as many can relate to those listening. And sometimes the timing just works out. So had a chance to change industries, which was, again, not something on my radar to do in this year or beyond, but had a chance to do to change industries and to become a head of a function that I dearly love. So it’s it’s been fantastic.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 7:44
Well, so Charlotte, talk to us, for those who maybe aren’t familiar or, or who still think the line is a little fuzzy. And for some, it may still be a little fuzzy. We say talent acquisition, and we say talent management. So can you can you kind of break down the difference in your mind and your world between the two? What divides those two? Where’s the start and stop?

Charlotte Cantu, Tokyo Marine 8:05
Sure, absolutely. So I think we can talk about it in terms of experience, right? So there’s experience that takes place, from the moment that someone becomes a potential candidate. And usually I think about it is everyone’s a potential candidate. So what’s the experience that people have in the realm of maybe they’re working and are being approached or they’re not working, and they’re looking for something. So the candidate experience all the way until someone becomes an employee falls into that acquisition space. Now, the talent management side of the house, there are blurring the lines. And so we can talk more about what that how that really works in organizations that sometimes don’t have those two functions delineated. So either in some cases, talent acquisition is picking up some of those responsibilities, or elements of learning and development or organizational effectiveness, or whoever else it might be referred to internally picks up some of those blurred lines as well. But talent management to me is really what happens from the moment that someone is an employee and their experience that happens all the way through that lifecycle.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 9:07
So it’s so the football so to speak, gets passed at what at onboarding if you’re going to be really generic about it, right, really, really high level.

Charlotte Cantu, Tokyo Marine 9:15
It can be I mean, I’ve worked I’ve led talent acquisition teams that owned onboarding. And then sometimes the handoff is the person signs the offer or even verbally accepts it. And then that the TA talent advisor recruiter is handing it off to the next group of people. So it really just depends on how the model is set up. And many of you are familiar with center of expertise models in which a COE might then be over all of that great so they have that had essentially built out the lens of saying okay, if we don’t understand is happening upstream, the TA forward looking lens and downstream the to the talent management lens looking back, and honestly, you can go either direction, then I think we’re doing our So I was a little bit of a disservice, I think a COE model is a little bit progressive in the way that that that happens. But again, I’ve worked in organizations where it’s, it’s functionally aligned, and the collaboration between those functions just needs to be really tight.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 10:15
So sure, I’m going to be I’m going to play a little devil’s advocate. And I’m also going to be a little vulnerable right now. And if we had sound effects on here, this is where we would play the world’s smallest violin. We dabbled Gerry and I, a number of years ago in expanding our membership, because we’ve been almost 30 years now, right talent acquisition. And we’ve been brought in some resources to help with this into the talent management space.

Charlotte Cantu, Tokyo Marine 10:42
I remember

Chris Hoyt, CXR 10:43
And I have to tell you, not an easy not to crack. Like these folks were not as open and as collaborative as the talent acquisition professionals that we’ve been used to working with. And part of that I’m sure is like, we have three, you know, three decades of experience with these ta folks that trust us, they know us. But even bringing in TM people that we knew, didn’t seem to be as open didn’t seem to be as willing to openly sort of share and collaborate. Is that is that your experience? Were we ahead of the curve? Have things changed? Or is that your experience today? Is that sort of some of the barriers you’re working to break down?

Charlotte Cantu, Tokyo Marine 11:22
Yeah, you know, that’s really interesting, Chris, because I did wonder kind of how how it kind of fizzled out a bit. Right. And so I think, I think there’s a few elements that play into that. I think talent management, defined as talent management today, is pretty much an emerging space, it really still is. It’s kind of like we thought about the concept of internal mobility that’s never not been around. But it’s one of the top three things that companies are talking about right now. And so why is it that that’s become the topic of interest, and who’s managing IT talent management now. So these spaces are emerging, think about it in terms of of social media and social media leaders, you know, employee engagement leaders, DNI leaders, I mean, that’s always been around to some regard. But as these things become more and more important to candidates, again, let’s look at it from a TA lens, we’ve got to know what’s important to our candidates to attract them, then those roles because you’ve got to keep the story going and the experience going, we can’t, we can’t sell something that doesn’t end up coming to fruition, right. That’s where the retention happens. Or the rather, the turnover happens, the retention doesn’t happen. And then just regards. So these these types of roles, talent management, leaders, and then even specializations under talent management. When I had this hat at WM, I had the role of leading talent management. Well, that’s a very broad term that encompasses everything from talent programs, everything from our internship programs to campus relations to a program we had called innovative employment pathways, all the different ways in which an employee would come in or a candidate rather to come into an organization as an employee, or maybe not even as an employee. Part time contingent gig workers are all part of a talent marketplace framework that traditionally had not been managed by who was managing it HR generalist potentially, to some degree. So talent management as my biased opinion has decided to emerge in the last few years as a recognized and needed component to an HR team.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 13:29
So I think that’s, that’s a really great perspective. And I guess, Charlotte, I would ask you, I mean, if I, if I’m at an organization, and this is in front of us, right, that’s just it’s just ahead. We’re not there yet. We haven’t we haven’t drawn a definitive line between TA and TM. But we do have people doing that that type of work. Is there any type of advice? Or, you know, any tips you have that would help me to be a better partner on the talent management side?

Charlotte Cantu, Tokyo Marine 13:58
Yes, absolutely. So coming in to my current employer, there’s not a defined talent management group. There is a CLE model in place. And the business structure is such that a COA model works well. There is a talent management talent, I’m sorry, Talent Acquisition COE, which I was hired to do, but there’s elements of talent management that really aren’t well defined and not not because it’s not important. It’s just because again, there’s so many competing things happening. So there is an L&D group that ultimately has kind of absorbed a lot of what is is taking place in the talent management world. So I see opportunities to make sure that my talent visors, my recruiters are intimately familiar with all of the programs that we then have to sell. And just as importantly, if out management teams or at least similar functions, l&d teams, optimization teams, that’s a new emerging space in HR as well. Talent optimization teams. If they’re not intimately familiar with what’s important to candidates, and across those generations that are still working, and this is all new, this is not new to us to anybody in a ton acquisition space. We’ve been talking about multi generational workforces for a very long time. But there’s so much data out there, and especially post pandemic, and what’s important to people. If our talent management folks, again, no matter what you’re called internally, if those folks aren’t intimately aware of what TA has to sell, and then deliver on it, there’s a huge disconnect. And that’s what’s going to happen when when candidates turning employees don’t have the loyalty and leave within that 60-90 1 year mark, that I think a lot of companies are experiencing right now, what occurs

Gerry Crispin, CXR 15:43
to me when you’re talking about the COE model is, and that’s a difference when you’re talking about talent acquisition or talent management, it says if they are standalone, you know, functions in silos, if you will. But when you’re talking about a COE model, you’re really inferring that the people within that silo are responsible in a form in a sense to know what their boundaries are, and to and to learn what the other, you know, silos are doing and impacting. And it forces that kind of curiosity, if you will, for what can I learn about what you’re doing that helps to align with what I need to do. And so as you talk about COE as a as a more progressive model, it occurs to me that that it is, in fact, a little bit more progressive, if you have that emphasis on it.

Charlotte Cantu, Tokyo Marine 16:34
It can be I mean, I certainly know of some organizations that have had COE models and have chosen to go the other direction. It’s kind of like the old adage of the pendulum swings one way and then give it a few years, and it swings the other direction. So there are I don’t think there’s a right or wrong honestly model to put in place. I think that there’s pros and cons to it. I think what we have to all be thinking about whether we’re leading talent acquisition teams, whether we were dual hats, and we kind of have one foot in the talent management space, and one foot in TA, for example, or we’re fully in a talent management model, but have to rely incredibly heavily on our talent acquisition partners, is we have to be very, very mindful of not creating silos, and really leading with that collaborative approach, because candidates turned employees turned alumni, they don’t know the difference. All they know is how you make them feel and what their experiences and how many people they’re talking to? And are we actually delivering on what we’ve sold them at the beginning. So we’re going to talk about things like for example, career development is in one of my top three priorities, speaking from, you know, a generation of you could probably look across the rest of the generations. And I wouldn’t be surprised if it emerged as top three in all of them to some regards, then what are we doing? What are we doing in those spaces, and when we talk about levels of employees, entry level, mid career leaders, etc, if they’re also coming back to us through various channels, have employee voices, whether it’s engagement, surveys, polls, surveys, new hire surveys, etc. And they’re saying, hey, the reason I joined is because you touted career development as something that is available here. I’m not seeing it. And then we’ve missed up, it’s easy to put words on a piece of paper, it’s easy to put things in a job description. It’s easy to create really slick collateral and brochures and videos that say, Hey, come join us because you can grow your career here. It’s a very different thing to be linking elbows with all those groups internally, COEs, functions, specialized groups, etc. That really have the responsibility to deliver on them.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 18:41
I mean, I have to tell you, so Gerry is one of a very small quarter people I think that put put candidate experience right on the map for us, to spotlight on it for years. And I remember, maybe maybe four or five years ago, we really started to see people talk more openly and actively kind of like us about employee experience. And I will never forget one of the toughest lessons I learned in my when I was corporate in my corporate career was you know, we spent we spent millions of dollars on an external brand right to your point, this external brand that was launched and everything you could think of was cared for. Right. So from elevator wraps to, you know, tchotchkes to portal websites, you name it t shirts, crazy, which is a whole nother story, by the way. All of that was thought of and then the toughest lesson we learned with five months in after that launch. We you know, as we’re busy patting ourselves on the back, we realize we didn’t do anything for the internals. We did nothing for the employee base and that as as wonderful as a promise that EVP was upfront. We were falling short on communicating how we deliver it internally. It was there that work was being done but big miss, like read just huge huge miss.

Charlotte Cantu, Tokyo Marine 20:02
Well think about it. I mean, the the acronym EVP that’s been around for a long time. Now, what’s the first letter stands for employee? So what’s the employee’s value proposition? Why does we’ll just say CVP? If we’re really just going to be talking about candidates, right. And so really making that an experience that’s strong all the way through, it’d be great to see something like the candidate experience awards, you know, emerge through the later parts of an employee lifecycle. I’m sure that there’s there’s things out there. Maybe that’s a great segue for you guys.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 20:35
It is

Chris Hoyt, CXR 20:36
I bet we get more traction than we did with talent management five years ago. So

Gerry Crispin, CXR 20:41
Yeah, I think I do think, though, that this career issue is going to be increasingly important as as we educate both candidates and employees to think about their job in or their work in relation to what a job is a job in relation to what their career is in a career in relation to their life stage. Currently. They, you know, if the pandemic has taught us anything, it is this blend that, that more and more people are trying to figure out. And if an employer can be, you know, enhance their ability to do that, and have conversations around that. I think it is another way to align that talent management and talent acquisitions.

Charlotte Cantu, Tokyo Marine 21:26
Absolutely, I think we’ll continue to see trends like programmatic retention efforts emerge, both internally and as ways to gain candidates through emerging leadership internally, but then early career for external I mentioned earlier, you know, good works, that has not gone away, I think, I don’t know that I’ve seen a whole lot of great examples of good programs. And some, there’s, there’s some bits and pieces there. And there’s certainly some technology that that claims to, to kind of facilitate that through. But, you know, our traditional applicant tracking models still lack those functionalities to really help facilitate the new world of what are called Talent Marketplaces. And even the term talent marketplaces. Right now, if you go online and Google a bunch of that it’s really technology platforms. I don’t think of it like that, I think of it more of as a as a talent management philosophy, and really wrapping our arms around it. And in terms of, again, various channels all coming together to your point. And Jerry and recognizing that not everyone has the same intention of how long they want their career to be, what kind of work they want to do, how work is done, has changed, where work has done has changed. And so it requires a lot more thinking, I think, more long term from employers than we ever really have in the past. And how to structure that.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 22:49
Yeah, I’d agree with that. For sure.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 22:51
100%. I love the way your brain works. Sure. Let me let me ask you in the in the same spirit of sharing lessons learned, what do you think you would maybe tell your your younger self of what maybe what was it six, seven years ago? I think you were still at WM. And I think your title had both both talent acquisition and Talent Management in it right, that piece in that work you were doing. If you could go back in time, seven years ago would there be a big watch out there? Would there be in a message of encouragement? What would you tell yourself?

Charlotte Cantu, Tokyo Marine 23:25
Yeah, I think that’s a great question. And I often think about that, honestly, I mean, using myself as an example, but then those that continue to just be in my network is I am and I’m, I almost kind of have an apology before I say this is that I would have, I would really have stepped out of talent acquisition a lot earlier, to expand the perspective I was having within HR, I loved what I was doing so much. So I said, You know what, let me just keep growing in TA and I’ll just become an expert and a better way to do this or will have the greatest technology and improve our processes by this much or save dollars in this way. And all those things I was able to happily say no I can. I did or with my teams. I did. But I did it in a very specific lens. It was not until I actually did. I’ll say be courageous enough because any kind of change sometimes requires us to be brave to step outside of my comfort zone and say you know what, maybe I didn’t inherently have this initial passion for a different area. But I never gave it a chance and I wish I would have done that way earlier because I will tell you there’s so much fun in talent management. And there’s so much yet to be done until lead. But it can’t be done without having again I think that complete lens across both so the hat that I wear today I am super excited that I get to pull elements of both into but anyone out there that may be listening and maybe you’re earlier in your career and trying to think about what you might want to do is I one of my best pieces of advice is be open to collecting additional experience and bring back your passion truly is in one area, we’re going to know it. But to step outside for a bit and bring it back, because it really does make a difference.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 25:07
I love that take a risk, take a tour, right to get your so and there are a lot of employers that are willing to do that if you step up and ask, but take a tour outside of your comfort zone and maybe maybe see if you broaden your knowledge or if you solidify the fact that you belong back over there where we’re at.

Charlotte Cantu, Tokyo Marine 25:25

Chris Hoyt, CXR 25:26
Yeah, I love that. So surely, if you were if you were going to write a book today about everything that you have learned this, this, this passion for talent management, what do you think the title of that book would be?

Charlotte Cantu, Tokyo Marine 25:40
Yeah, it’s, you know, I think there’s a lot of titles that may sound similar, but I think it’s because it really hits people in a very similar way. It’s the intersection between passion and purpose. I think that that’s at the core of really being able to understand how to keep great talent, and how to let great talent go, when it’s time for them to go, because that’s not always recognized either is that people can come in, and can drop their best contributions in your lap at the employer that they’re at then, but then need to go on for a number of other reasons. And that, to me, really comes back to inherently how that individual is, What’s their purpose at that point in time in their life, and then what’s their passion, maybe what they’re doing, but also the passion outside of work. And where those two intersect is where I think people do their best work. And again, a lot of how I view someone’s experience, once they come into an employer and what they what their experiences, however long they’re there is making sure that our philosophy, our people, philosophy is supporting that not forcing the square peg in the round hole, not forcing someone to do a job that they might be good at, but they’re not passionate about. And so I don’t know, there’d be some elements of all of what I just described, if I were to write a book about it.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 26:53
Well, I like the intersection of what was intersection of passion and passion, purpose, purpose, I feel like that would make a great tattoo we could get those to tie together. We could get up just on our backs really, really big.

Charlotte Cantu, Tokyo Marine 27:08
Oh, goodness, with CXR written across it right?

Chris Hoyt, CXR 27:12
I don’t understand why there’s not a you know, a race to the tattoo shop for our crazy.

Charlotte Cantu, Tokyo Marine 27:16
Hey challenge accepted. I’m going to come to the next meeting with a with a temporary CXR tattoo with that on it.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 27:24
Well, Charlotte, if you wrote that book, who would you give, who in your career has been influential enough that you think you would give that first signed copy too?

Charlotte Cantu, Tokyo Marine 27:34
Oh, goodness, um, quite a few. But I will tell you that they there. And there are two individuals, both women that have been incredibly influential in my career. And both of them are very different from one another. And one of them was a former boss from many, many years ago, but who also became a confidant, and later on my career coach, her name is Donna Hastings. And she’s someone that I keep touch with today, had an excellent career. In fact, her career was more in the od, the more traditional od in a talent management space. And then I would also have to reach out back again to the individual that I worked with, under her leadership for quite a few years that waste management, which was Nokia McDuffie, who is now in a CHRO role at Clean Harbors. So both of them just are extremely influential in very different ways. And I think would, would appreciate probably stories that I can share about both of them in a book like that.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 28:32
But they weren’t well, Charlotte, much gratitude, so grateful for you to jump into the meeting, and make the podcast show with us today. It’s always great to catch up with you. I can’t wait till we see you again at the news, the next CXR meetings. It’s long overdue.

Charlotte Cantu, Tokyo Marine 28:47
Yes, it is. Thank you so much, again, for having me. It was a pleasure.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 28:51
Course, of course, really quickly, I’ll take us out and I’m gonna shove you back in the greenroom. So just hang out for a second. I want to remind everybody who’s watching and listening to check out the community and see if you qualify, we’ve got over 130 other companies. We’re looking at about 5000, recruiting leaders and professionals collectively, all you got to do is go to CXR.works, check it out, see what you’re missing, see if you qualify and connect with us. Right. I also want to remind you once again, I know I mentioned this earlier, but I want you to pass along the CXR.works/jobs URL, as of this morning, again, over 200 recruiting jobs out there that are open and hiring around the world. And quite a few of those are of course remote. So if you’re lucky enough to be in a stable role where you’re at today, it doesn’t mean you can’t help your community and pass that along. And with that, I want to say thanks, everybody for joining us again and we will catch you next time. Thanks.

CXR Announcer 29:45
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