Chris Hoyt, CXR 
All right. And so I think I think that works, but we’ll just we’ll see what happens today. It should be pretty easy. Angie, how are you? I’m good. Thanks.

Angie Verros, Vaia Talent 0:07
How are you?

Chris Hoyt, CXR 0:09
It’s good to see you on here.

Angie Verros, Vaia Talent 0:12
Always good to see you on here. Thank you for inviting me again.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 0:15
Surprise me. It’s an invite. It’s a standing invite. You know, everybody, everybody’s on the show.

Angie Verros, Vaia Talent 0:20
I expect a recurring invite on this every Tuesday.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 0:23
Every guest gets a recurring invite. So Amybeth, just keep the link

Angie Verros, Vaia Talent 0:31
I’ll just jump in if you like it.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 0:33
That’s right. Well, let’s get it started. Here we go.

Announcer 0:37
Welcome to the CXR channel, our premier podcast for Talent Acquisition and Talent Management. listen in as the CXR community discusses a wide range of topics focused on attracting engaging and retaining the best talent, we’re glad you’re here.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 1:06
I feel like if we could just keep that music going through the whole thing, and we just have a little bit of background. So welcome listeners CXR podcast, I’m Chris Hoyt, President of CareerXroads, I am happy that you have tuned in for this episode, or that your listening live while you are out and about, or on your treadmill or your bike or just working away at your desk. If you are joining us live on Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, I think even our website now at CXR.works/podcast, you can drop a note to us in the text. Just say hello, share your social or professional profile with us. We’ll make sure to connect with you directly. Also, you can drop in any questions that you might have for our guests. And we’ll see if we can get those addressed over the course of this roughly 20 minutes show. Now, if you didn’t join us last week. I’m not mad about it. But you didn’t miss on the pleasure of connecting with Angie Verros, who is founder, CEO and sourcing sorceress. Now, if you missed it, the episode is obviously up on the site. But I want to let you know that here at CXR. We just keep raising the bar. And we’re going from a sourcing sorceress, to a research goddess. I’m pumped to welcome Amybeth Quinn to the show. Amy Beth, how are you?

Amybeth Quinn, ServiceNow 2:15
Hey, Chris, it’s nice to see.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 2:17
You weren’t expecting that. Were you? Let’s do a close up. There we go. It’s a little bit better. It’s good to see you. Thanks for joining the show.

Amybeth Quinn, ServiceNow 2:26
You too. Thanks for inviting me.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 2:28
Yeah, so for those who don’t know, Amybeth Quinn, maybe give us what I like to ask for an escalator pitch. So give us the escalator pitch of who Amybeth Quinn is and why we should maybe be tuned in or stay tuned in to what you have to say today.

Amybeth Quinn, ServiceNow 2:44
Sure. So I am the Director for global talent sourcing at ServiceNow. I am actually coming up in a couple of months on 20 years in talent acquisition, which just is unbelievable to me that I’ve been in this world for so long. I have you know, you name it. I’ve done it when it comes to talent acquisition. I’ve been a full cycle recruiter. I’ve been a researcher. I’ve been a sourcer. I used to be the editor for Sourcecon. I was the OG editor, editor for Sourcecon. You know, so I’ve I’ve been around the block and talent acquisition, I always come back to sourcing I always come back to that because it’s my first love. So here I am living the dream at ServiceNow running a global team here.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 3:38
I love that. I love it. And I’m glad you’re here live in the dream with us. I think that’s great. So I do want to welcome we’ve got a guest in the greenroom if you were on early you saw her. Use our welcome back to the show, ladies and gentlemen. Angie.

Angie Verros, Vaia Talent 3:50
Hi. Good to see you.

Amybeth Quinn, ServiceNow 3:55
Always good to see you.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 3:56
Good stuff. So Amybeth. So the topic today we invited Jean here because Andrew, if you’re on the show last week and our Angie, maybe for those who maybe missed the show, I might be a little bit mad about it. But why don’t you share just really quickly just give us kind of a quick rundown of who you are and what your organization does.

Angie Verros, Vaia Talent 4:12
So thank you, Chris. So I, I am coming up on 20 years, just under Amybeth. So I’ve been in the business for about 17 years. And sourcing is an area that I absolutely love. And what we do at Vaia is we help companies when they’re looking to scale. So we help partner with them in it and help them with their sourcing needs. So that’s my story. And for those of you who missed it last week, catch it on CXR.works/podcast.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 4:39
That’s pretty good. Thanks for the promo. We love that. I mean, the show is literally just as connecting with people that we love and talking about stuff we just want to talk about. So if anybody’s expecting any fancier production than this, this is it. This is this is what you get. So look Amybeth, you joined our sourcing meeting up about a week ago, right and we had about 40 sourcers, researchers and I think sourcing leaders that were on and you presented on the topic of career pathing for sourcing professionals. So I’m gonna play the devil’s advocate because you know, you know where I stand on this right? We’ve known each other a long time. But I want to ask this question for the folks who may not know what sourcers just get promoted to be recruiters. Why does sourcers be the career path?

Amybeth Quinn, ServiceNow 5:24
Well, I guess you know, if you think back on the history of you know how talent sourcing came about. This all used to be one role. It used to be a headhunter. And over the years, headhunting to hire people has become more and more complex. So the complexity is what really caused channel specialties to break out from, you know, the end to end hiring process. You’ve got specialties like employer branding, and recruitment, marketing, you’ve got specialties like university and campus recruiting, you’ve got specialties like talent insights, and research. And of course, you have talent sourcing, which focuses on the top of the funnel, I like to tell people that my team looks for people who don’t know yet that they want to work here. And it’s an important part of the hiring process. Because not everybody is going to see your job advertisement, not everybody is going to be actively looking for a new opportunity. Not everybody knows that they can be happier in another, another place. And that’s why talent sourcing has become important as grown in importance, I would say, even in the last few years, to capture attention of people who may not be tied to your brand to your company, or may not be actively looking for their next opportunity.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 6:42
Interesting. So you talked a little bit about in your escalator pitch, or give us a little bit of history on sort of where you’ve been, but can you kind of, can you kind of walk us through that path with just a little bit more detail. And Angie, you’re next because I definitely want to ask you to share sort of your path but also you’re both in the same channel sort of of interest in the business right both in that sourcing and search and lead gen piece but you’ve got some you got a different path to get there.

Amybeth Quinn, ServiceNow 7:10
I started exercise and sports science in college. So I mean, clearly like that was a path directly in the talents

Chris Hoyt, CXR 7:16
Easily.

Amybeth Quinn, ServiceNow 7:21
I have my my wonderful sister-in-law Christie to thank for me being here. She called me up one one day when I was living in Florida. And she said, Hey, I know you’re you like computers. That was really the start of the whole conversation. She was working for an agency at that time. And she they had an internet research position open. So knowing that I enjoyed doing stuff on computers. She called me up and said, Why don’t you come up in interview for this role and visit me and your brother for a long weekend. So you know, me being an adventurous person. I was like, Okay, I went from Florida up to Ohio and interviewed for the position and got it. And I mean, that started the journey. I fell in love with research. I worked in agencies for about five years before I took my first corporate opportunity. Along the way, I had a really great collection of people that mentored me, throughout my career. And I remember one conversation with Joanna Clark, she had come to Seattle, Joanna and I worked together at AT&T we went to dinner one night, and she encouraged me to you know, spread my wings and try full cycle recruiting. You know, I poopoo that I was like, I like sourcing local recruiter, but she encouraged me, she said, in order for you to, like truly understand what you love, you need to try other things. So I, you know, did full cycle recruitment in a couple of different companies. And I was good at it. I won’t say I was the most awesome recruiter. I was good enough at it. But it really helped me to solidify my love of the research and talent sourcing component event in hiring. So that was really important to me was having that encouragement from somebody to you know, like stretch out of my comfort zone. And, you know, just to understand what I really what I really loved and enjoy.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 9:25
I love that so not not a direct path outside of the whole sports piece. But So Angie, you have a nearly identical story, don’t you?

Angie Verros, Vaia Talent 9:34
Well, kind of except not the sports path. I actually was a stockbroker before I fell into recruitment. And I did. I fell into it because after September 11, it was difficult to find a job in the financial sector. And so my recruiter actually said, Well, why don’t you just become a recruiter, you know, you know the financial piece. And we’re a financial services firm. So come and recruit and I think, you know, to Amybeth’s point, I enjoyed the recruitment. But what I really liked was the research. So it was hard for me to go out and get jobs from clients. And so the the senior recruiters, you know that the people that had been there for a really long time, were the ones that were managing the client relationships, but they couldn’t find the they couldn’t find the candidates. So I said, Look, I’ll find the candidates, and then you guys manage the relationships. And then it just got me into sourcing and research and looking for people. And I mean, that’s the piece that I love. I love I love doing that. And I worked for Amybeth on her sourcing and research team. At one point, it was the most amazing experience that I’ve ever had. So, Amybeth, I, I learned so much from you. And it was an absolute pleasure working for you. And I can’t thank you enough for everything that I learned

Amybeth Quinn, ServiceNow 10:53
20 bucks coming your way. Thanks.

Angie Verros, Vaia Talent 10:59
For 20 bucks, I’ll say some nice things about you, Chris 20 bucks.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 11:04
In the booth, right, five, five cents for you get a little psychiatric advice.

Angie Verros, Vaia Talent 11:08
No, I’ve never met such a passionate leader for the love of the game. And that’s really Amy Beth, you know, she is so passionate. And such an amazing leader, an amazing mentor. And Chris did not ask me to come here and say these things. But I haven’t talked to you in such a long time. And I mean, it’s been a long time since we spoke. And it’s the things that she has built in previous organizations and continues to build is something that’s truly unique and amazing. So my hat’s off to you. Thank you.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 11:42
Nice. Okay, so it’s a great segue. So we talked about things that Amybeth likes to build. So Amybeth, why don’t you talk us through because part of the reason we said oh my gosh, we got to get you on the show. Right? It didn’t it only took us 15 minutes to get to the point. But the idea is that, like you have begun this work that really addresses career pathing for sourcing professionals, right? And it might not be exactly what some people are most people I would think think Do you want to kind of talk us through it. And I think if you’ve got I think he got a slide or something, just let me know, when you want me to throw it up there. But maybe talk us through some of this.

Amybeth Quinn, ServiceNow 12:14
Yeah, it’s it’s fun to look at the path. And kind of how it’s evolved. I mean, yeah, go for it, toss, toss that up there, let’s take. There’s my career path on the bottom, it’s kind of messy. But I mean, that’s the whole idea of enjoying the journey, right? The journey can be incredibly messy, but that’s how you gain experiences and wisdom. I can’t remember who shared the post on LinkedIn a few months ago, but it was, you know, talked about, you know, length of time in a job, you know, versus impact. And I commented on this and said, you know, this is this is not about experience, it is about truly about experiences, and the only way to get experiences is to try different things. You know, I you know, to the comment I made earlier about my conversation with Joanna, I appreciate that so much, because I would have stayed in my comfort zone. And you know, I probably still would have been, you know, doing something in sourcing, but it really did help solidify that that’s where I want it to be. That’s actually something that my team at ServiceNow, you know, we drive hearts across the organization is think about what you want to do, nobody’s going to care about your career path as much as you do. And your managers will support you, or I should say good managers will support you, and help to enable you know, your your growth, and however you choose to design your career path, but you have to take ownership of it, and to make those decisions for yourself. So, you know, one of the things that’s important to me is making sure that however people want to grow, we can support that and facilitate it through good foundational skills, skills building. You know, for sourcing, I think there’s a lot of skills that are similar to you know, full cycle recruitment. But there’s also stuff that’s very different. There’s a passion in good talent sorcerers. For the top of the funnel work, there’s a passion for information discovery and creative approaches to grabbing somebody’s attention and being able to talk to candidates about opportunities that they might not have been thinking about. There’s different skills that are going to make people successful in those types of roles.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 14:48
So what what does it look like when you’re talking about sharing, how to address career pathing for sourcers and expectations is just telling them that look, I’m gonna throw some spaghetti on the floor and this might be your career path? And that’s okay, or is there a little more to that methodology?

Unknown Speaker 15:04
I think at the foundation of it is understanding what is different between full cycle recruitment and talent sourcing. You know, this is something that, you know, whether you are hiring talent sources, or whether you are looking for a role in talent sourcing. These are questions that should be asked in the interview process. If you’re hiring for talent, sourcers, you got to make sure you understand what you’re going to be asking those people to do. And what is different about those asks, from full-cycle recruiters on the team. If you’re looking for role in talent sourcing, it’s important to ask the person that you’re interviewing with how does your company to find talent sourcing, talent sourcing and a lot of companies is a little bit more heavy on the research side of things and may not involve candidate engagement. Whereas other companies, you know, may have talent sourcers doing engagement up to, you know, the point of making offer decisions, if you don’t understand how a company defines talent sourcing before joining it, and it’s not in alignment with the things that you love. It’s going to be a mismatch. So I think that’s the foundation is understanding how that how that role is defined? And does it match with what you want to do?

Chris Hoyt, CXR 16:19
Yeah, it’s funny you say that. So I’ll pivot a little bit to Angie. Because last week, Angie, we talked a little bit about sort of this, I don’t want to steal your thunder, but sort of the same thing about letting people do the work that they’re happy about their most happy about excited about?

Angie Verros, Vaia Talent 16:32
Yeah, no, absolutely. It’s, you know, we do it a little differently, where we have people that just source no engagement, they just find people and that’s the research piece that I think he was talking about. And, and it’s just a different path. You know, people like to sit at their desks eight hours a day, you know, and just look for people and dig. And if that if it were up to me, I would do that all day long. I love to source and they love to find people. And then the engagement piece is a little different, right? You’ve got people who are passionate about being creative, and creating message techniques so that they can reach out to candidates. And I like to do that. But I’d love to just go in and create a Boolean string. I know that sounds really nerdy, but I’d love to just research and find out where I can find the people to your point ABQ that don’t know yet that they want to be found. Right? And so that, that that’s that’s exactly, you know, everybody does it differently.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 17:25
You It’s good stuff. So what’s next with this Amybeth, like you’ve set the stage sort of with with your team, and now sort of throughout, you know, throughout the space a little bit in terms of like, chase, what makes you happy, right, I’m just gonna summarize so sorry, but chase, what makes you happy? Experiment, right, it’s okay to step outside of your comfort zone, as hard as that may be. And as many years as it may take to convince someone, they should step outside their space, because they can always step back in, but they may find something new. Or it may just what reinforce the fact that they weren’t doing what they what they truly were meant to be. So what what’s next with this piece?

Amybeth Quinn, ServiceNow 18:04
Um, that’s a good question. I mean, each person’s journey is going to look very different. You know, and, you know, to your point, like, sometimes it’s going to take a lot longer,  you know, get to that point where you really and truly know what you love doing. The, so I’m thinking back to the first, the first source con, I actually got to speak at and talk about the role of internet research. And when I was a kid, I enjoy reading the Choose Your Own Adventure books, if anybody doesn’t…

Chris Hoyt, CXR 18:36
I love those were my

Amybeth Quinn, ServiceNow 18:40
They were they were awesome. For anybody that isn’t familiar with those books. They are, that’s a series of like little short stories, each book, you know, you read up to a certain point and then you have to choose a path and you turn to you know, a specific page in the book and continue your path. I always like reading those books in reverse, I wanted to find the ending that I that I wanted and I will reverse engineer how to get to that. So I think that’s you know, part of why I really enjoy research and talent sourcing is because you know, I am looking for that you know that that best ending and you know, trying to figure out how to get there but that’s really each person’s you know, career journey. You have to choose your own adventure you can’t you know, just follow the path that you know, you think others expect you to be on or you know, that the you know, the rest of your team or your colleagues are on you have to think seriously about what is going to make you happy what you enjoy doing most in your job you know, understanding along the way you know, there’s there’s parts of every job that are going to be painfully boring, or you know, just just the time suck. But you know, what can you tolerate what you tolerate, but you know, each each person is on a choose your own adventure journey, in my opinion.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 19:58
Well, I think I’ll ask Angie the same like Angie, what would you tell, Why, uh, you have a great story. I think that really deserves a call out of hiring a barista do I mean, I don’t know that but can you can you give us sort of the short version of how you hired a barista to be a sourcer, a researcher for you?

Angie Verros, Vaia Talent 20:21
Yes, yes. So, um, I was sitting at a at a hotel cafe. But uh, yeah, about a year ago, and I brought my laptop with me and I was doing some work and the server. You know, he was very polite, I would go there, often, you know, three, four, or five, six times a week sometimes. And he asked me one day, oh, in English, you know, what are you doing? Because I was I’m in Greece, what are you doing? And I told him, you know, this is what I do. I’m looking for people. You know, I just explained to him what I was doing. And he said, Oh, that’s interesting. Can you tell me a little bit more. So I just told him a little bit more. And then the next day, he came back, he brought me my coffee, he remembered. And long story short, he, I gave him my card. And I said, Look, if you’re looking for a job, and I can help in any way, please let me know because I can connect you with the right people. But if you’re looking to learn a little bit more about what we do, I’d be happy to talk to you about that as well. And so he actually sent me an email later that day, and wanted to learn more. And I told him, this is what we do. We research, we look for people, and this is how we do it. And we talk about, you know, Boolean, and we talk about the different tools. And a year later, so I hired him, and had no experience educated with a degree spoke very well English. And a year later, he sends a note on our company slack and says, so here’s how the story goes a year ago, I was serving Angie, a double Greek coffee, no sugar. And now I’m here sourcing for, you know, gameplay engineers, and, you know, financial analysts, or whatever it was that he said. And so I think that the mindset to become a researcher or a sourcer, you don’t have to have a certain background, you know, to Amybeth’s experience, in my experience, I was a broker, I just knew how to, you know, dial for dollars. And, and he and he did it, he was curious, and he wanted to research and he learned and he went through training. And I think it makes sense, especially in today’s world, with the talent being so scarce or so difficult to find in this field. If you find good people that are curious and willing to learn, take a chance on them. And and you’ll get you’ll get a Daniel, that’s his name.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 22:33
Shout out to Daniel,

Angie Verros, Vaia Talent 22:35
There you go.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 22:36
I think so what I take away from both of you and the story, and thanks for sharing that again, Angie. It really is about, you know, not not just being comfortable to take risks, but also having people in your corner. So you’re talking about having a future leader or a current leader in both of your stories, or even a colleague, I think Angie you mentioned as well, who, who is there for you. So not just to listen to him sometimes, but to push you out of your comfort zone a little bit and then support you in that move. Yeah. Yeah. So it’s I think it’s also important as a quick call out and just just to bring us all the way back is that if you are a sourcer or researcher in your role, and you’re looking at the corporate org chart, and you’re wondering, what’s my next move, it’s probably not directly above you on the org chart. Right, may or may not, may not even be on that or chart might still be at the organization, but might be somewhere else entirely. So I think you got to open up your eyes a little bit, and maybe get out of your comfort zone.

Amybeth Quinn, ServiceNow 23:32
Yeah, that’s why those foundational skills building is so important, because those are the skills that will be portable. If you you know, choose to go into talent insights, or you want to, you know, get into HR, or if you want to go completely different direction and get into, you know, like a product role or into a finance role, or, you know, like sales enablement was an example used a couple of weeks ago, you know, there’s a lot of overlap and skill area between sales enablement, and, and research and the the competitive intelligence piece alone. But those foundational skills are important to exercise. And, you know, this can sometimes be the boring components of it. You know, one of the things that we focus on on my team is operational rigor, because regardless of what type of career path you choose for yourself, being able to, you know, be it being a good time management, you know, individual like being able to manage your calendar, being able to, you know, show, show your work, you know, recording, you know, documentation, that’s all important stuff. It’s some of the most boring parts of most roles, but it’s such a portable skill set, regardless of what career path you choose for yourself.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 24:52
Yep, I agree with that completely. Well, I thank you both for your time today. A couple of quick things that I want to tell everybody about really quickly before we head out. Up Coming. So on May 5, we’re gonna pull together about 100 ta leaders for our spring leadership meeting. And we’ve got a special surprise guest coming to delight our attendees and tackle the topic of transformation. Additionally, we have a powerhouse panel of TA leaders arranged there the heads of talent from Ford Motor Company, Thermo Fisher, and Roche and they’re going to tackle that same topic transformation within ta May 11. We are welcoming Athena Karp, She is the CEO and founder of hired score. And she’s going to walk our members through what’s new at hired score. And of course, what’s ahead and one of our what we’re calling CXR solutions, spotlights. And of course, will not want to miss the members and alumni meeting coming up. That means if you have ever been a CXR member, or you are current CXR, remember, this meeting is open to you. It’s coming up on May 19. And we’re actually leaning all the way in on transparency in TA. Now Gerry is working on a project, I would have let him do the promo for this bit, but he’s got a two part article, you can go to CXR.works, scroll all the way to the bottom, you can just head to cxr.works/headlines. To see it really great segments on taking a stand on transparency in recruiting, and the movement so far on pay transparency, and what he thinks is ahead. Now within both of those, there is a survey that anybody can take, that’s asking about what elements of recruiting needs more transparency. So it’s super easy. So regardless of what level you are at, or what field or division of recruiting that you may be in, I’d really encourage you to check that out. Drop your thoughts in on that one, that one question survey. Again, all of these are over at CXR.works/events are in the blog section. Now I want to call something out. We do a monthly this new CXR lecture series, we bring a monthly guest in and they talk about topics that our leaders have said are hot developmental issues, or need more attention with their teams. Right. So last week, we did overcoming adversity, and we had Bruce Hood in fantastic session. But there was sort of an interesting piece in there. Amybeth, I don’t know, did you happen to catch this? I don’t know that you were on that particular piece that we did. Were you on it?

Amybeth Quinn, ServiceNow 27:11
No.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 27:12
Okay, so this is new, don’t worry, it’s in the library, you can watch it. But there was a great reminder in there that we all have to sort of take a moment and breathe. So I want to ask each of you, it’s hectic, it’s crazy, we’re busier than we have ever been. You can’t deny it. I want to ask each of you what you do to relax. How do you unwind a little bit? Angie, why don’t you go first? Do you have a method or a way to sort of just remind yourself to breathe.

Angie Verros, Vaia Talent 27:37
So I do. I go for a walk every morning, if I don’t go for a walk in the morning, and just at least get that in. As I said a lot of hours. It’s, it’s hard. And, and it’s a release for me. I you know, on my watch, my watch alerts me every 15 minutes that I need to get up and I need to move and I need to just take a moment back. So I just do that, you know, I remember listening to someone talk about breathing exercises, you know, take two deep breaths in, you know, deep and then let them go. And so I catch myself from time to time doing that throughout the day and does make a difference because it is really busy and really hectic. So that’s how I try to do it. And I try not to work too late. And try to take a little bit of time, you know, to really just capture the moment because it is crazy busy. So that’s I try breathing exercises. They they work.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 28:33
Yeah, I would agree. I think in fact, that’s one of the said in the session. The lecture series we did that was an interesting exercise that he walked us through was kind of fun. Amybeth, what do you do you play with the dog do you breathe, you go for a walk when you get to stay sane?

Amybeth Quinn, ServiceNow 28:48
Well my husband and I just relocated to a pretty rural part of the eastern part of the US and we have a lake on the property. I’ve discovered that we have a few pretty large fish in that lake. And for whatever reason it’s I enjoy watching them swim around the lake. So I’ll take a walk out there and you know, watch different things that are happening in the lake. There’s some turtles and they’re bullfrogs the fish swimming around, it’s calming to me just to see you know nature in its beauty and natural element. You know, another good thing for me is talking to my husband I have an incredibly supportive husband who you know he he will listen if I need to vent he’ll help me problem solve things if I’m you know, going through some challenges and you know, having a person in your life that will give you that time and and lead to listening ears is so invaluable, so I’m very thankful to have him.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 29:55
I love that. I love it. Well, you’re very, very fortunate. Very lucky to have a partner like that. Oh, Um, so both of those are mine really. So it’s funny you mentioned that the breathing exercise right Andy and then a bit of that nature. We did I’ve been a headspace user for years right so that mindful meditation we actually gave away 25 licenses for CXR 25th birthday. Anniversary excuse me not birthday, I guess it would be birthday. But like we just believe in I’ve been doing it on and off for maybe five years and it’s just been a huge boon for me. So nice nice space, but what I want to just call out I know both of you know this person, Heather Bussing Yes. Breathe nodding. Yes, lawyer, photographer all around really good person. We’re going to take a page directly from her book. Today we’re going to close out with a reminder that no matter what we’re doing, we need to remember to just stop there it is you stop just stop and breathe. So whatever you’re doing if it’s safe, try to sit still. Take some deep breaths and enjoy these 30 seconds on the beach with us.

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