S5 E11 | CXR Podcast: Jonathan Kidder, Amazon

Amazon Senior Technical Recruiter, Jonathan Kidder, talks about what's keeping him up at night in the world of tech recruiting.

S5 E11 | CXR Podcast: Jonathan Kidder, Amazon

Amazon Senior Technical Recruiter, Jonathan Kidder, talks about what's keeping him up at night in the world of tech recruiting.

CXR Announcer 0:00
Welcome to the CXR channel, our premier podcast for talent acquisition and Talent Management. listen in as the CSR community discusses a wide range of topics focused on attracting, engaging and retaining the best talent. We’re glad you’re here.

Chris Hoyt 0:28
I know we talked about getting a new one every time and every time like it’s a little bit of a jam. I mean, Jonathan, do we upgrade the music? Or do we leave it?

Jonathan Kidder 0:36
I love it. I love the intro. It looks really cool.

Chris Hoyt 0:39
It feels a little. But you know, I still get the I gotta do. I might just me showing my age. So it could be it.

Jonathan Kidder 0:50
Yeah, maybe.

Chris Hoyt 0:52
For those who just joined us here on the CXR podcast, we’re super excited to have you here. If you are listening, or watching us live on Facebook, YouTube, LinkedIn, Twitter, whatnot, there’s probably a chat window in there. If you want to drop a note in the chat and say, Hello, you can do that. If you want to ask any questions for Jonathan, we’ll take a look at those. If it’s a great question. I’ll try to float it over if we get time. Or if it’s just a bad question. We’re gonna ignore it. We’re gonna skip it. And we’ll just pass you right by but you’ll feel good that you contributed. So Jonathan Kidder, welcome to the show.

Jonathan Kidder 1:22
Glad to be here, Chris. Thanks so much for having me. Love to

Chris Hoyt 1:25
have you. Look, you’ve been doing this a long time. Right? The Jonathan kiter that I know about. You’ve been sourcing I think, I think your entire career. And if I remember, right, you cut your teeth at Best Buy ages ago, right? Is that like

Jonathan Kidder 1:44
I did. And I went to school for communication. So I love to talk to people I just loved presenting to people I was getting into kind of marketing. And I took a job with a lead just global solutions on their Best Buy account as kind of employee branding person. So just by chance, I got into TA and they put me right next recruiters on the floor, and I got to see them on the phones, I got to see them source. And I’m like, wow, I really have to just dive into that. I just love what I’m hearing. They’re just energetic. They’re excited every day. They’re like, we got this person in the pipeline. And, and I just kind of fell in love with recruiting. So I, you know, I know everyone says, Hey, I didn’t go to school for recruiting. But I feel like it was like bound to happen for me, just because I loved communicating and talking to people so much, too. Well,

Chris Hoyt 2:36
was there a moment? Was there a moment when you were dealing with all that where you just suddenly said, recruiting was kind of interesting. I’m going to give that a shot.

Jonathan Kidder 2:43
Yeah, for me, it was like, Hey, I’m doing social media campaigns. I’m doing job advertisements. You know, we’re doing so much content. And like, it’s just a lot easier if I could just like find someone and just call them on the phone and be like, do you want this job? And and that’s why I was like, Oh, it’s this it’s called sourcing. And so I kind of like fell into it. Without even realizing what what sourcing was or what the term was at that it was recruiting. And I just felt like, it’s it’s such a good thing just to kind of reach out to people build that pipeline. And I just fell in love with with it right away.

Chris Hoyt 3:22
That’s great. So okay, so I’m having flashbacks of like, Best Buy. There was a guy that was there on the brand. Social side back around that right to 2010 2011. I think was it Josh or Yeah, yep, there. Yeah.

Jonathan Kidder 3:38
They had a huge community there, too. They were kind of almost like trendsetters, too, with social media. They kind of connected Hey, people were talking about products online. Why don’t we engage them? Or why don’t we have a customer service chatline integrated with social media? And it was a huge success for them to

Chris Hoyt 3:57
Oh, yeah. And I remember he ended up leaving the talent space entirely to go complete marketing, if I remember right, but it was right after David Manchester do an era there are some sort of, yeah, words caught some sourcecon events

Jonathan Kidder 4:10
that they did a few too. And then, and yeah, I think I went to the source con in 2011 2012 and Shali. Glen, all the greats were there presenting. And it just like blew my mind. I’m like, Oh my gosh, what an honor to just listen in on what this world was. And it was just so cutting edge to I know, at that time, many people were still relying on like crew builder, dice monster, they’re like, let’s just post and pray. Have people apply? And they just kind of came in and just said, Hey, look, it’s sourcing. This is the future and take it or leave it to so

Chris Hoyt 4:48
yeah. Well, Jonathan, look, you do a really great job. I mean, Jerry was in the greenroom a little earlier and stuff that you do a great job of. You’re so gracious and you’re you’re so wonderful at saying oh my gosh, I you know fall To learn from Shalini you got Yeah, I gotta tell you a little bit of an instructor yourself. I mean, you’re talking about wizard sorcerer, you’ve had a blog since like, what 2015? Yeah. If I’m remembering, right, you you even offer, you’re kind of a side hustle for you, you doing training courses, right and sourcing, mostly Boolean

Jonathan Kidder 5:21
Boolean training courses, I share and sell PDF documents on My Sites. And it’s really taking off too. And for me, kind of the history is my, both my parents were in the teaching field too. So they just got so jazzed by teaching. And my mom was a teacher for 32 years, in education, too. And I feel like I’m just like, just like her where she likes to kind of present and to get people excited. And I get just jazzed by seeing someone who’s new in recruiting. And then, you know, you see them two, three years down the line, and they’re just just killing it too. So it’s kind of fun to to see that, like, Hey, I help someone. And, you know, I really enjoy that. So helping people learn is something that I thrive on, too. I know, I could source a source of my day to day job. But, you know, I get the chance to kind of train a lot of internal teams. At my current employer. Yeah, that’s, that’s the funnest part of my day, too. So just training, seeing people learn and grow. And because there’s just so much to learn, it’s so complicated. There’s just so many areas, and it’s fun to go to, like sourcecon, or other events, to see people’s strategies, like everyone does it differently. So it’s, here’s how I do it. And yourself, someone else does it and you know, take that create your own strategy and kind of run with it too, as well.

Chris Hoyt 6:41
Well, there’s always a nice balance of when you go to an event like a source con or an era or you know, any of these other where you really get to work side by side and do these sort of do strategic things or exercise even like at our own meetings we do. When I was an attendee right, instead of a facilitator, it was always interesting for me to level set on, I am not as far ahead as I thought I was, or I am not as far behind as I thought I was, it’s a really great level seven,

Jonathan Kidder 7:07
it’s really humbling to because, you know, sometimes you go to events, and you’re like, wow, I know all these things. But there’s usually one or two presenters where they’re just like, taking it to that next level, you’re like, I had no idea. Someone else is doing this. And, wow, I’m gonna just, I want to take it. Yeah, I’ve got the presenters and message them and like, I’m gonna take the strategy, hopefully, you’re, you know, I’ll definitely give you credit, but I just love what you’re doing. And people get excited from that, too. They kind of bounce off each other. But you can have that. So it’s always worth going to a few conferences or, or doing trainings in the field, because things are constantly changing. So if you are you No recruiter, you’ve, I’ve talked to so many recruiters that have been, hey, I’ve got 15 years of experience. And then I talked through like, Hey, what’s your strategy? Do you know? What’s your boolean string? What’s your favorite tool, and just blank face? And I’m like, Well, you know, there’s so much to learn. And you really need to be constantly learning, you need to be investing in your career, because it is such a moving target in this industry, too. So you, you really have to invest, take the time to learn, take the time to go to events like this, just because things are always moving. So give it like 1020 years, you know, things will be so different. In our industry, it’s not going to be the same at all. There’s some industries where it’s like, this is just the way it is, you know, everything is is clear cut. For us. It’s it’s always changing too, as well.

Chris Hoyt 8:30
Yeah, for sure. Well look like three years ago, searching hunting for tech talent, right? Or software engineers more more jobs than anybody ever thought of who would have predicted that two years later, recruiting jobs without without number, you know, the tech jobs.

Jonathan Kidder 8:45
So true to it even for us, I think many companies realize that you need to have a unique skill set to be able to talk to tech talent, you need to kind of talk their lingo. And for me, it’s taken me 567 years to kind of like, be able to kind of conflict, talk to someone about okay, this is what you’re working on. This is what you’re building. I mean, it’s a learned skill that takes time, you can’t just pull someone, you know, a generalist off the street and be like, now you’re a tech recruiting. Good luck. Yeah, you know, so you’re gonna have to kind of ramp up. It’s gonna take years of practice and, and determination and failing forward, as I say to because just because you’re going to have to fail at something until you really grow into it. So

Chris Hoyt 9:27
yeah, well, Jonathan, so Pete Radloff, whom you obviously know, in the chat and says that there’s just you can see the joy in this guy, right when when the light bulb goes on for other people. He’s a teacher, he’s a giver, right in the space. Yeah. It’s so true. Thanks for chiming in.

Jonathan Kidder 9:48
It’s one of the best to he was one of the first people I get to meet at sourcecon. Around late 2012, and he he got me connected with people and just Give her two really good at networking relationship building. And one of the greats too. So

Chris Hoyt 10:06
well, let me ask you, John, so when we talked, we talked a little bit about different now. So how, how do you think John than the sourcing has sort of changed in the last five years? Well, the path, you know, right. And I’m gonna get, I’m gonna do a piece on that I’m going to tack on the end of that. What do you think’s gonna happen in the next five years for sourcing?

Jonathan Kidder 10:28
Good question. So I would say, you know, five years back, it was dice monster. And then there was a tool called Connect to fire that just was launched. And it was about finding con, contact information on candidates. So really, it was about finding cell phone numbers, email addresses, that was such a huge thing. And then other extensions came out hire tool, seek out and dozens of others that do the same thing. And that was like the cutting edge thing, like, oh, my gosh, I can find someone’s email if I do kind of a deep search online. Yep. And then I can reach out to them directly, and get them connected in our pipeline. Now, like presently, it’s more about just engaging, too, because it’s more than ever, it’s easier to find someone’s cell phone number, email address, or find them on social media. The trick now is engaging them correctly, and appropriately to as well, because some people just, Hey, I found your profile on LinkedIn. And here’s the job and they leave it like that. And they send the same message, no merge message to 50 people. And, and then maybe they get one response back. And it’s a no. And a lot of junior recruiters are like, Hey, I’m trying everything I’ve, I’ve got all the contact information, but people aren’t responding. And really, it just comes down to engagement, too. So that’s really the present issue is there’s so many openings, the market is on fire. Yeah. But how can we remain unique? How can we send them a unique message, and it’s really just, you know, finding them across social media, or on websites or blogs, and then just calling out their unique skill sets, like, Oh, I found your project here, you did this project. And here’s my team that I’m hiring for, here’s our, here’s what we’re working on, here’s the project, here’s the tech stack, here’s why I think you would be a good match to as well. So it’s really just taking the time to write a well versed, recruiter best edge to so called quality over quantity every day. So I think

Chris Hoyt 12:34
what I think I hear you saying is that it’s not it’s not about finding the talent as like it used to be all about finding the talent. Right now. It’s really more about how are you going to talk to the talent, right? How are you going to engage the talent or sort of entice the talent to connect with you? Right,

Jonathan Kidder 12:48
exactly. And if you go to any recruiting in house team, they have an ATS. I’m sure they have billions of candidates just sitting in their database. Oh, yeah. You know, you can get their contact information. But how can you really engage them effectively, appropriately and be creative and unique to with your messaging?

Chris Hoyt 13:08
Are you doing anything so as interesting funnily didn’t really interest on on the brain food podcast? I think the other day did a really interesting discussion that kind of it kind of squirreled off into, how do you engage the maybes. So you, you’re talking to the yeses, and you’re letting them know what’s going on? I think the topic was candidate experience. And then you’re talking, you’re definitely sending something out to the nose. There’s this big bucket of maybes that are sitting inside of your ATS. And then the topic came up to well, what about the maybe maybes, like what do we do? Right? I mean, go ahead.

Jonathan Kidder 13:36
I, you know, for me, I always love to involve a hiring manager too, as well. So hiring manager, they’re eager to fill a role. They’re eager to just get out there. They know how competitive it is. And it’s also humbling for them, because then they realize that they’re putting a lot of pressure on you the source or find the leads, but then hey, you know, send them a list of maybe send them a list of passive candidates and just say, Hey, can you message these people for me, here’s the template that I use, make sure to call it their uniqueness. And they’re going to see kind of like how difficult it is. But at the same time for passive maybe candidates. If a hiring manager reaches out, like, Hey, I’m the hiring manager. Here’s my project that I’m working on. Maybe here’s a YouTube video, but we’re working on, here’s a summary of the job description. They’re going to get so jazzed by that to people just like, oh, my gosh, the hiring manager reached out to me and, you know,

Chris Hoyt 14:29
on behalf of the hiring manager, do I know there are tools out there, they can send it from the hiring manager, I

Jonathan Kidder 14:34
do it sometimes what I do is I have I reach out or just send that connection request on LinkedIn. And then, like, here’s the people that didn’t respond to my initial outreach, second outreach, okay, hiring manager, throwing the guns here throwing everything you got. And, you know, basically, I do it as kind of a second outreach attempt, and I would say response skyrocket, just because Even for me, I’ve had people from Google or Apple or many other companies, hiring managers reach out to me directly. Hey, I’m a recruiting manager. I saw your background, I saw your blog, let’s let’s connect. I’m kind of like, Hey, I feel kind of special here. You know, they took the time to just send me something versus like, I saw your profile. Here’s the job, please apply. Yep. Or if you know anyone else, let me know. So they kind of just leave it like that too, as well.

Chris Hoyt 15:26
So that so we’ve got so also in the chat, so they Raymond hope I’m saying your night. Hey, yes. Messaging and sort of snackable versus these, you know, maybe versus and I’m going to speak on your behalf day. But instead of these diatribe messages that go out, I think she’s talking about, there’s some effectiveness to cultural language. So really driving the message home, but in small snackable messages that go out?

Jonathan Kidder 15:51
Exactly. And really, at the end of it, I’ve read somewhere that someone reads an email or email for about 25 to 30 seconds. So really, you really need to hone in on what are why are you reaching out to them? What’s What’s the reasoning, why? Because people get so many messages. And really, it’s, it’s, here’s a bullet points, here’s what exactly what I want to call out to your attention to as well. Because people like email, they people more and more reading it like, like a text message, they’re reading it more like a tweet, you know, they’re reading, like, they’re not going to read a full summary of an email. Now, I even I don’t. So I mean, that’s just the culture that we’re seeing, you know, that people are, are not going to take the time to read a full copy, paste a job description, your damn job. You know, so it’s like bullet points or like a tweet almost where it’s like, you know, here’s, here’s the bullet point.

Chris Hoyt 16:51
Do you think any candidate ever came back to a sorcerer and said, If you have 32 more bullet points about this job? Really get me across the finish line?

Jonathan Kidder 16:59
Maybe? You know, you know, I think people respond with, why are you reaching out to me? And what’s the reasoning behind it? So really, you need to answer for your first two to three email sequences, the reasoning why, why? Why am I you know, you’re busy? I’m obviously distracting you why, you know, how can I be creative? How can I? What’s what’s the point of the message to?

Chris Hoyt 17:24
Yeah. So and that was that part? Let me ask you. So I know you get asked all the questions, you’re doing some teaching and a little side hustle on the side, right, you’re doing you’re teaching, you got a great blog, where I think you get, you get an awful lot of kudos from people in the space, you got some really good content out there. I know that you are becoming one of these people that that you love to give such a gracious response to and say thank you for giving. You’re a giver, Jonathan, you’re giving to the space. So you must get asked questions all the time. And so I’m going to ask you, what, what is the question that you are most tired of hearing? On the topic of sourcing, whether it be for diverse data? What’s the question you hate to hear?

Jonathan Kidder 18:03
I hate to hear it when someone reaches out to me and they say, I’m getting interviewed for recruiting job and they want me to create a Boolean string, or here’s what they sent me as kind of a homework sheet. Can you respond back with the appropriate answers? So I’m like, oh, that’s like cringe. I’m not gonna interview for you. They want me to interview for them, and answer their, like phone screen questions that they’re that they received.

Chris Hoyt 18:32
So they’re saying, Give me a fish not teach me how to fish? If you’re worried about

Jonathan Kidder 18:36
exactly, that’s the cringe one, two, that’s one where I’m like, I’m not gonna respond. And another one is, hey, you know, what’s the best contact finding extension? What’s the best tools? There’s so many, you know, you go to any source group or any, any group, my Facebook group, they ask the same, like, generic message once or twice a week. So

Chris Hoyt 18:57
what would you like to say to them to the audit so that you never have to answer that question again.

Jonathan Kidder 19:03
Either go to Dean’s List, he’s got his own like, Hey, guys. Yeah. Just just have that as a reference. Or I did write a book about talent sourcing tools. I demoed about 60 of the most generic tools and I categorize them. So you know, there’s that’s a good reference. If you have just, if you’re starting from ground zero, it’s a great reference for tools based on different categories contact finding scraping, email automation. It’s a great reference.

Chris Hoyt 19:33
So what you mentioned Okay, so you mentioned I like how you just casually say, I did write a book. Books I just sit like right just in the last couple of

Jonathan Kidder 19:44
years Oh, no, in one year, one and a half year and it really what the reasoning was, was I was COVID hit everything shut down and I had so much free time people are like, maybe they’re making bread at night or they’re making recipes.

Chris Hoyt 19:58
Bread thing came from No, no had

Jonathan Kidder 20:02
our baby where people were trying to source for toilet paper or whatever else they were trying to do. But I just like I sat at home and I’m like, There’s TV, what do I do at night. And, you know, from six to eight o’clock at night, I would just open up my laptop and think about different topics that, you know, if you searched on Amazon or Barnes and Noble, no one really tackled these topics. So one, for example, is diversity, talent sourcing, there’s no diversity book about Boolean strings available online. Which is kind of interesting to say, it’s kind of sad to say that because I think it’s such an important topic, and no one has tackled it. It’s it’s complicated. It’s, it’s tough to learn. And it’s, it’s confusing. So I was like, you know, what, I’m gonna try to tackle this topic, give my favorite strings, and kind of go from there. So, but yeah, I focused on different topics that there’s just not a lot of books out there, like becoming a tech recruiter, Boolean strings. So many more.

Chris Hoyt 21:01
Yeah, so sourcing for diversity is a really big deal. So what I’m gonna do, we’ve got, I’ve actually got a link here for your, if anybody’s interested, I just threw it in the chat. Hopefully, it shows up there. You can go and click on that, that’ll take you to some of Jonathan’s books, you can take a look at those on Amazon. But I want to ask anybody who’s in the chat, we’ll get a handful of folks that are in there. What would be a great resource, because the questions coming to you to Jonathan, what would be a great resource to learn about diversity sourcing? Or what is your number one sort of go to tactic for diversity sourcing, because you’re kind of stuck? A lot of times, you’re kind of stuck with what you’re allowed to look at and screen for. And you see a lot of recruiters being held to these diversity slaves, but they’re not given any, any of the self identification information on the front end. I mean, what would be for somebody who’s just been told, they got to start sourcing, diversity, talent, Jonathan, and they don’t have access to the ATS information where someone may have or may not have self identified, right? What do you what would be one thing you would tell them to do?

Jonathan Kidder 21:59
I would say, number one, focus on data. So talent mapping right away, so you get a job. And they’re like, here’s the locations where the person can sit and do research, there’s many different websites, that you kind of look for data one, the US Bureau of Labor Statistics is a great reference, it’s free to use to break down each individual state and you can figure out based on diversity, population data, you can figure out, Okay, in this county, this is where people might be located. And using that to your advantage to kind of figure out based on data trends, population data, that’s number one. Number two, look at you know, look at LinkedIn recruiter job insights, or just start to kind of Google, who are the top companies hiring in this location? And then what are the top universities, tech schools, boot camps? And each individual location? You know, where are they coming from? And there’s many different, let’s say, most diverse, universities, lists that you can kind of pull that information to as well. So that’s one part. Another part is nonprofits, association groups, meetup groups, there’s so many different individual communities online, there’s slack groups, there’s Twitter chats, I mean, it’s it’s phenomenal too. So people kind of tend to flock together to if you’ve heard of that term, and there’s just ways to kind of find people online meetups, Facebook groups, that way too, as well. So that’s one part. And then for tools, I always recommend a tool called native current. It’s one of my favorite tools, this guy has, for the Bay Area created a Boolean string generator tool. So you can kind of look at different demographic information like, hey, I want to find women in tech, or women in finance. He’s broken down different Boolean string examples that you kind of pull from and kind of reference to as well. It’s a great tool, it’s free to use, and actually met with the CEO, I gave more suggestions for this tool, just to get it more out there too. And I’ve got my little summary about my experience about the tool, I think on his main page, too, as well. So

Chris Hoyt 24:10
I just dropped the link in the chat for anybody who’s interested in that. And of course, if you’re in the chat, drop some more links in there. Oh,

Jonathan Kidder 24:16
keep dropping. So yeah, in my book, I reference all those things. I focus on data. And then I focus on engagement. How can you reach out to someone? How can you make them feel comfortable? That’s a really important part too, as well. And a lot of people I’ve talked to other recruiters where they’re like, hey, and they put in their message, hey, I’m focusing on diversity. So that’s why I reached out to you. And I would never say anything like that in your messaging. So just being appropriate with with your messaging to these candidates to I think, in different specific niches, they just know how rare or how difficult it is to kind of find those people. So don’t feel don’t alienate them. Don’t don’t treat them any differently. But then at the same time, make sure to focus on candidate experience to Yeah. gasps Yeah. I’ll do it.

Chris Hoyt 25:05
I know. I’d really like to talk to you about a job. Yeah.

Jonathan Kidder 25:12
Please don’t do that. You know why I’m trying to hit my numbers here? And here’s what I’m doing. Don’t do that. So but yeah, that’s really everything I have. In my book I focus on that I focus on can experience I focus on engagement. I mean, now, like, it’s easy to find someone’s contact information, but it’s hard to like, or takes experience to really engage them. Get them excited about an opportunity that that takes a lot of skill. It takes years to master to as well.

Chris Hoyt 25:42
Yeah, I think so diversity aside, right, from a recruiting standpoint, and trying to get the talent to actually come in and engage with you and talk with you. How big of a deal is compensation now? I mean, we’re like, we had a wonderful podcast show a little while back, where I would argue that the only thing we have taught our employees how to barter for how to fight for his salary. Right? Yeah, I’ve taught them how to ask for more, we are getting better at it. And they’re emboldened now with everything that’s going on. We haven’t taught them how to ask for a more well rounded workplace, we haven’t taught them how to ask for total compensation. We haven’t, you know, that kind of thing. And so as a result, what I think happens in a lot of the conversations we’re hearing about is the title, and maybe the location, the salary, those things are like, they just shut up sourcer, just tell me how much you know how much I can maybe make a deal right now, this comp, in those conversations on the front end as a sourcer.

Jonathan Kidder 26:42
Very important. So setting expectations right away on your initial phone screen is gonna be really important too, as well. Because, you know, and what’s your target? What are you? What are your expectations? And, you know, what are you hearing from other companies, and they’re gonna be very honest with you, and here’s what I’m targeting, here’s what I’m seeing. And this happens all the time, where, hey, I talked to someone, they’re, they’re actively interviewing, so you’re like, oh, my gosh, but I’m also they’re also interviewing at, you know, five other companies. So, yeah, just the level of competition, it’s going to be high. So really setting clear expectations clear, you know, here’s the full comp, here’s what I’m targeting, all those things are going to be really important too, because, you know, at the end of the day, you can bring them to the whole process, and then they get inclined for the offer, and they don’t accept because you didn’t set that clear expectation up front. So that’s going to be really important. But, you know, I’ve, I’ve talked to other recruiters that, hey, they put the comp right in the subtitle or the title of the email expectations, too. So I would say that’s really important. Another thing is his work flexibility. Being remote is just like, you know, just like a basic thing. Now, I know, two years prior, like, we still require people to go into an office. But now that’s shifting so much that, you know, majority of candidates just want to fully remote jobs. So that’s interesting to kind of see that shift, I wonder if we’ll go back to kind of go into like a hybrid mode in the future or what companies will do with that. But most candidates,

Chris Hoyt 28:15
I think that we get out of this, whether we go regardless of the workspace, right, I think from a recruiting industry space from a source or, or whoever does the outreach and the screening we’re talking about. And just to recap, right, we’re talking about short messages, short bursts of messages to grab someone’s attention, not a long diatribe, not 40 bullets of whatever. But in that sense, this is a big challenge for people who are reaching out for talent, because you’re supposed to talk about how your company embraces or supports inclusion. And thanks, Kim Thomas, great, great call out. You’re supposed to talk about your corporate culture and your language, you’re supposed to talk about the working environment, and you’re supposed to talk about salary, all in 140 character supposed to go out? Like how is the sorcerer supposed to know which way is up and what they should prioritize? What would you tell them?

Jonathan Kidder 29:03
You know, that’s a good question. I would say, you know, go with your gut go with what candidates are, what they’re saying what they’re asking for, like, if they go right into it. You know, I would say if a kid jumps right into salary, that’s one of many things that you want to go for. Maybe they might not be a good culture fit if they’re like really demanding on kind of just the copy. So you got to look for someone who’s well, you know, in all these other areas, leadership to be a good person, at building relationships with other employees. There’s many different things to kind of focus on but I would say you’re going to hear what people want to ask. So you know, if a candidate starts bringing it up, you know, make sure to kind of prioritize and flow with your phone screens flow with the conversation, too. And also if they get off track, try to try to bring them back, you know, oh, well, let’s let’s focus on these main things. But you know, for me, my my main thing Say, are you actively interviewing? Are you passively interviewing? That’s my number one question right away. So then you can kind of like figure out, Okay, here’s how I kind of sell them. If they’re more passive yourself, I can sell them on the team, the project here, so I can sell the story. Or here’s how I can talk about leadership or if they’re active, I go right into just showcasing kind of the, the role what’s, what’s requirements on the role, what are we working on? What’s exciting about the team, those selling points right away? And then number two, is location preferences. Are you open to this location? Are you remote? And then are you you know, how many interviews are you going through right now? So you can kind of figure out oh, oh, my gosh, I’m interviewing at 10 companies at once, you know. So, and with that in mind, you that’s how you can differentiate yourself to affect candidates is interviewing at so many companies, after your phone screen, send them an email, follow up, like, here’s what I need from you. Here’s an update. And if, if you want some kind of a weekly update, like here’s what we’re doing on our end, you know, here’s here’s kind of the process, try to differentiate yourself to like, oh, my gosh, they’re so well organized, to on the back end. So I’m probably gonna go with this company, because Jonathan is so detail oriented on next steps to

Chris Hoyt 31:14
got it. I love it, Jonathan, the giver kiter. Jonathan, let me begin with one piece of take us out with one piece of practical advice you’d give yourself 10 years ago. So if you could go back and tell yourself it was just, you just getting started out of allegiance into Best Buy and just just getting your teeth on this search sourcing thing? Might give it a shot, what would you tell yourself now,

Jonathan Kidder 31:39
I would say you know, for I tell this to most entry level recruiters, don’t be so hard on yourself too. And you’re gonna have imposter syndrome, like, Am I good enough. And in order to be successful in recruiting, you’re gonna have to just go with the flow, you’re gonna have to, you’re gonna have ups and downs, you’re gonna have a month where you’re successful. Next month, they got nothing. And it’s a roller coaster ride, you know, and just kind of stay solid, stay, stay up and up, do everything that you can kind of control. Focus on your daily routines, here’s what I’m gonna do. I’m going to time block sourcing, I’m gonna do this today. And do that everyday. So build those routines every day, you’ll be successful. In the end.

Chris Hoyt 32:18
That’s wonderful. Thanks so much, John. We’re really, really so grateful for you being on the show. We thanks for cutting time on he’s great. We appreciate being able to share. Yeah, happy to be here. Good stuff, look for those live. We’ve got a solution showcase this afternoon with seek out so that’s a live demo and walkthrough with a noop Gupta. He is the CEO and founder over there. Also on March 24, we’ve got a new guest in our CXR lecture series. We’re doing one of these a month. The topic is mindset for innovation. We’ll be hearing from rod Ben Zeev from think that’s a school of creative leadership. And then of course, last but not least, on April 20, we’ve got our CXR sourcing meeting coming up. So we hope that our CX members will join there if you’re wanting to learn more about CSR or just joining that community and take part you can join us at CXR dot works. If you haven’t already subscribed, hit the likes and the subscribes and all those fancy buttons and we’ll let you know what’s going on, on and around in that podcast. You can get that at cxr.org/podcast And with that, I just want to say thank you to everybody and Jonathan the giver kiter that’s you forever going forward we thank you for coming in. Thanks everyone.

CXR Announcer 33:26
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