S4 E114 | CXR Podcast: The Plantation Theory with John Graham

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Chris Hoyt, CXR 0:21
Welcome ready to another podcast you Welcome to the CXR podcast. So we’re super excited. We’re actually putting this together it is it is a book club meeting that we typically do. But we’re gonna go ahead and throw this one in, we’re thrown in the mix as a recording for our podcast, because well, we just we’d like the damn book so much. And we like the author, we thought we’d, we’d save it for posterity sake, and push it out there. So we do have a number of folks, I think we have about a half dozen, we’re at a dozen now we got about a dozen folks in the audience. So told them to go ahead and mute for now John, and I will start talking a little bit, and then we’ll open it up. I think a little bit towards the end should be a fun, maybe 2030 minute conversation. So if you’re on your treadmill, you’re in for a good chat. good workout. That’s how you can keep track of that. And we’ll just jump in. John, welcome back. It’s good to see it.

John Graham, Shaker Recruitment Marketing 1:07
Great to be back, Chris, good to see you as well. Hey everybody.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 1:11
Yeah, it’s good. Follow up to our last conversation. book that you have written one of my two copies, because I have one that I have torn up with notes and tags and folded pages. But this is my clean copy.

John Graham, Shaker Recruitment Marketing 1:24
Absolutely the one for show. I love it.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 1:26
That’s right. That’s right. So just for those who don’t know you or who, God forbid, missed the last podcast that we did last meeting that we had, do you want to give us only give us that pitch of who john is? And then give us an overview of the book that we’re going to chat about real quick?

John Graham, Shaker Recruitment Marketing 1:40
Yes, absolutely. So Hello, everyone, John Graham, Vice President global employer brand diversity and culture at shaker recruitment, marketing, I help companies make sure their employer brand marketing actually matches reality, helping to improve lived experiences of marginalized talent as well through the consulting longtime friend of, of the family here. So it’s good to be with you. Plantation Theory, The Black Professionals Struggle Between Freedom and Security is the book. And it is equal parts memoir as historical record, but captures the lived experiences of black professionals and modern corporate America and connects the dots between history and the modern day lived experience. So yeah,

Chris Hoyt, CXR 2:30
Good stuff. Good stuff. I enjoyed that. I know we talked last time a little bit about why you wrote the book, and why you felt the timing was right. And I gotta tell you how I haven’t gotten through it. There are some elements of the book that I found very powerful. And I do want to open it up to everybody to to kick in. Yeah, and there were some fun pieces in there. But there was one thing and I was talking when we were in Vegas last week at HR tech, got to help us were in Vegas for a week is why I say that. But there was a conversation that was had and your book came up. And we were talking a little bit about it in terms of the lens in which we all look at things. And I will tell you very selfishly, because it’s our show, I’ll start first there. I haven’t seen nearly as much of what you share in this in my in my reality. And in my experience as a white man, right in fortune companies. And I find myself of late asking myself, what have I What have I glossed over? What have I missed? And certainly with all the things that have happened within the last couple of years now I have seen some very ugly things happen. And I have tried to take a stand when I felt like I was doing the right thing. But as I read through this, so much deeper, and so much more. And the part of the conversation I’m representing here is that I am wondering, I find myself wondering every time a topic comes up now, if if I have this opinion, because I’ve just sort of arrived there on my own, or because I now must second guess the way that I am perceiving this because I have been ignorant to an entirely other lens or entirely other viewpoint. Does that does that resonate at all? Was that sort of the piece of the objective of the messaging that comes out of the book

John Graham, Shaker Recruitment Marketing 4:19
100% the fact that you’re that you’re consciously questioning now, is is the goal, right? It moves out of automaticity moves you out of automaticity moves you into conscious examination of scenarios, and, you know, help hoping to have given some language around or some perspective around the experiences that you have not been privy to or made aware of based on socialization, proximity, you know, where you live, the homogeneity of of communities, things of those natures, that largely wouldn’t give you access To this language that you’ve seen in the book, so yes, I think we’ve accomplished the mission.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 5:06
A lot of work in progress.

John Graham, Shaker Recruitment Marketing 5:09
We all are.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 5:10
There was a story that you shared that really resonated with me. With regards to there was a back and forth you were having with one of the senior HR leaders. And I think he went I think it was partially in person, then it moved to text. I think he said one morning at a back and forth text volley. Yeah, were you she called you an agitator. And basically said, pump the brakes, like slits, like sit down, be quiet, sort of, sort of that move. And identified with the element of, in my experience, people have said, you always want everybody to go 100 miles an hour, slow down, right, slow down, and try to take us there. And one of the best pieces of advice I ever got was that as when you become a director, when you become a leader, within corporate, it’s being a director is not about getting shit done. It’s about taking people with you. That is the difference of strong leader. Right, but never in my wildest dreams would I have applied that, that same sort of conversation in in the way that it had happened to you. And it felt and reading your perspective of it. And I’ll take a breath in a minute reading your perspective of it, I had to sit down for a minute, because it really felt like when I had been told to slow down, it was slow down when you had been told to slow down from this perspective, it was slow down and be quiet. And I mean, so let me stop there. Is that

John Graham, Shaker Recruitment Marketing 6:29
Yeah.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 6:29
Anything you want to add to that?

John Graham, Shaker Recruitment Marketing 6:31
Yeah, I mean, if you look at the historical record, weight, has been told to black folks, for hundreds of years. Just wait, right? We’ll get there. Wait, right, the Martin Luther King spoke about the, the insidiousness of weight, especially when it came to the to the white progressive. And so, you know, understanding at a deeper level, how language crosses cultural and racial realities. There’s deep psychological work in the area of pragmatics. And it really speaks to the three levels of conversation that are happening at any given time. And there’s a linguistic there’s a para linguistic, and then there’s a psychological. So just understanding this, at the linguistic level, it’s taking the words for what they are. And then you know, apply your own perspective to them, as you hear them. The para linguistic is the hand motions, the gestures, the physical, the visual representation, that communicates as well, then there’s the psychological, which heavily relies on the, the hear, or the listener to infer what’s being said without what actually is being said, when we look at racial realities, and how we communicate, black folks, and a lot of non white cultures, prioritize the linguistic. So what you say, right, your word is your bond, right mean, what you say, say what you mean, all of those things that’s heavily in the linguistic, the psychological is the implied meaning saying things that aren’t being said, and understanding those. So if we’re looking at just the difference in cultural connection in terms of communication, we’re already at a disconnect. And most people don’t even know that. So when she was saying what she was saying she was communicating through her own racial reality through her own cultural means of communication. What I heard, it’s very different. And that’s, that was what you saw documented. What’s my reaction to that? Because the way I’m receiving what she’s saying, didn’t it? It did not meet her where she was intending to go? And I didn’t have the, I guess the, the capacity to care at that point, right. Like, the the, the emotional connection to what she was saying, linguistically did not resonate for me. So

Chris Hoyt, CXR 8:51
Well I’m, there was an element of you just kind of too damn tired for some of that, right? But like, if that’s a conversation, or at least in your headspace a conversation that’s happening over and over and over?

John Graham, Shaker Recruitment Marketing 9:03
Oh, for sure. Yeah, I mean, and also it’s the insult came it just sort of the implication that we need to wait for them to be comfortable for change. Again, if we’re talking about actual solutions and improvement of lived experience, then it shouldn’t be based on your your comfort. I understand in reality, it has to, it has to be because that’s where the power structure lies. But that is the frustration and the work. So

Chris Hoyt, CXR 9:29
Yeah, I think that the storytelling, the timing of this, the story that you’re telling, right, this path, sits nicely with within the the world of the pandemic, because there was a point made in there. And I was thinking it kind of along the way of why does it take so long for the pivot? Why does it take so long for actual structural change? Right, Why does it take so long for impact versus intent? And he’s called it out and I think a lot of people probably reading it, were thinking the same thing when the pandemic hit organizations that couldn’t couldn’t work remote couldn’t the infrastructure wasn’t there, the budget wasn’t there, the capabilities just were possible that culture wouldn’t allow you to work promoted or destroy our creativity. They pivoted on a dime. And then 30 days, they had full infrastructure built out. They were fully remote like they made it happen because it was a business imperative.

John Graham, Shaker Recruitment Marketing 10:18
Yeah, that’s right. So So now it proves that it’s not a capability issue. purely a willingness issue.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 10:26
Yeah, yeah. Which was ugly, felt ugly.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 10:30
What strikes me about the this conversation about the waiting issue was, it gave me a new new appreciation for one of the meetings that we had a couple years ago, where we were talking about DE&I issues, in particular, gender equity, and, and most of the studies had indicated it would take somewhere between 70 and 150 years to reach parity, to reach parity. And 70 years was the least of the studies. And I remember one of our members in kind of the, the, the moment of silence around that, basically just said, I’m tired of waiting. And and it provoked a whole set of conversations around around why what what is how do you make this an imperative because it can be done immediately, you know, some aspects of it can certainly be done immediately. The other the other thing that it made, because I really loved the book,

John Graham, Shaker Recruitment Marketing 11:48
Thank you,

Gerry Crispin, CXR 11:49
Um, it helped, it helped me see, you know, a view that I totally could have not experienced. Um, and, and I recognized that we see reality in different in different ways different and there are different realities that exist within the same frame, the two pages that had the most impact on me was your description of how you would advise or how you would approach young black men and women coming out of school. I’m in advising them about what they’re about to experience if they choose to come work for the company. And, and I had two reactions, the first reaction was, Oh, my God,

Chris Hoyt, CXR 12:40
It felt so negative.

John Graham, Shaker Recruitment Marketing 12:42
That’s terrible.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 12:42
That was also negative. That Yeah, that’s it, you know, oh, really. I had I yeah, I really struggled with it. And then, and then I also realized, because we’ve had, in fact, I know Nicole was in a panel where we had a long conversation about a number of the issues. And one of the conversations that came up in the panel was whether interns who are from underrepresented groups, should, should be expectations should be set differently in relation to what they’re going to encounter as an intern, in part because they may not have had an experience which people coach them, they may not have had a prior experience in as an intern. And so rather than them overreacting in relation to some of the some of the natural things that that are taking place, or unnatural things that are taking place, they that the conversations with folks who are in underrepresented groups should be should be couched differently. And in terms of the setup for what you’re going to experience, and that, that gave context to what you you had said with those two pages. And I kind of rethought that over and over again, as to if would I do the same thing. And you know, the more the more I took on that mantle of, of what you see and what you’ve faced over time, the more I would most likely want to be as transparent as possible about the reality.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 14:32
John I just I’d like to ask too, so when I read that piece, and it was, you’re going to get told to sit down and be quiet, you’re going to get paid less on the dollar. You’re going to you’re going to work really, really hard and it’s going to shine a light on white mediocrity, you there are going to be microaggressions and out over like, you’re going to deal with all that. At first. I was like Jesus, he’s setting the stage for these folks to just have a really miserable expectation. But then I kept kind of reading and I was wondering if your stance on that was, maybe you want to reconsider sort of working for somebody, and rise up and sort of be the boss, and pave your own way. And I just I wanted to ask kind of your thoughts on that. And then how you how do those conversations go when you have?

John Graham, Shaker Recruitment Marketing 15:19
Yeah, yeah, there’s a, there’s a sentiment of that, for sure. And explicitly, you know, rethinking the premise and the premise that’s been sold, go to school, get the degree get a job, or 30 years retire, die, that that largely doesn’t account for a few things. But, you know, putting it in front of you to say, this is what you’re going to face and right, I can say this with a high degree of certainty, because I know that the experience is universal. And I don’t have to talk to many people explicitly about what they experience, because I already know, and they can confirm, you know, for the most part, so knowing that those are the things that are going to be faced, it’s not a question of, if it’s a question of when, how are you going to deal with that? How do you better prepare, be clear on what you’re experiencing when you experience it so that you have the tools to deal with and manage? Ultimately, I don’t suggest that people don’t go into corporate. What I suggest is if you’re going to go in, know what you’re going to go with, with your eyes open, know what you’re going to experience. Additionally, go in with a purpose go in with a plan, a strategy, what are you there to learn? What are you there to gain? What skills what relationships and networks do you need to build? What acumen and exposure Do you need to gain? With that in mind, that becomes a different relationship, right? And even still, there’s there’s going to be abuses, but it’s up to you to determine when that relationship is no longer serving you and move on. And whatever that opens up, or what doors those open up. From your time within those environments. Start thinking about how do you apply that to something you own and can grow? Right? And that’s really my ultimate message in that section was, you know, don’t go in with blinders. Right? Nobody tells you these things. And like I said, In the book, even my parents who were both in corporate, and my father retired at executive level, and Ford Motor Company didn’t sit me down and tell me what I was going to face. You know, my mother was an entrepreneur, after leaving corporate because she saw that she saw the bullshit early. So nobody sits you down and tells you we think there are talks that we have in black households that are requirements for survival, how to handle corporate wasn’t one of them. Right? And so this is my contribution there to say, you know, just understand that this is what it’s like, Do I want it to be like that? Absolutely not. But I’d rather you be aware, rather than be blindsided, because what we’re talking about is impact to mental health, physical, emotional, mental health. And I talked to people, almost daily, who have been broken down to their core to their studs, and have to rebuild after experiencing these abusive relationships for 20 to 30 years. You know, so I’d rather say something than say nothing at all.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 18:17
Well, I’m, I’m a fan of what you’ve said. What what I continue to try to process is how I from the perspective I have, can be more of an ally, to affect, whatever change I can affect.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 18:35
Yeah, well, John, I think you do a good book, too, because you you you lay out not just exactly what Gerry’s talking about. I think that’s where he’s going. But you lay out into this idea of this cultural competency components, and you even provide a series of, and I’ll let you talk to them. So I don’t want to thunder even provide a series of checklists and items and a highly recommended book by D’Angelo, to really sort of, you know, go deep on any emotions that maybe came out of the book.

John Graham, Shaker Recruitment Marketing 19:08
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, there’s several books in there, throughout that I recommend, but I think the the executive readiness check is a great place to start. You know, those were, it’s funny in the preface, I suggest that this is not a solutions book. My intent was not to give you the blueprint to how to fix this. That is something that needs to be arrived at in an individual basis. And, and ultimately done through asking better questions. And that’s that’s ultimately what I preach trains. Look for better questions that will provide better solutions. So the question set that I provided in the checklist should set you up for going deeper than ally ship pushes you towards abolitionist, right, which is a word that we haven’t heard in the context of corporate Because I think ally ship has been the focus while I say ally ship falls a bit short, because there’s no skin in the game, you can return back to comfort the moment it gets too tough ally ship put skin in the game and risk. And that’s what privilege and power can afford you, right? Is the opportunity to take a risk that won’t, you know, sideline you forever, right? It may take a hit, you may lose some social standing or some status. But if you’re creating pathways and opening doors where others could, and that is where you’re putting your power and privilege to good work. So yeah, the question said, the recruiter or the cultural competency checklist for recruiters, for sure. Huge, right? When we start to think about who we’re bringing into the organization, yes, there’s a huge focus on attracting marginalized talent. Cool, let’s fix the culture. So we’re not bringing bodies in the burning buildings. But secondly, let’s ensure that those those in power positions or power dominant groups of people are the right people to move your culture to where you want it to be that the status quo hires, or else you’re just sort of, you know, rinsing off a clean car and mud, right? Yeah, for sure. Well,

Chris Hoyt, CXR 21:14
I want to open it up. So if you if you’re muted, and you’re and you’re in the peanut gallery, and you want to chime in, you want to ask john, any questions now, now is a great chance for you to unmute, and go ahead and ask and jump right in. So I’ll just take a breath and let john take a few questions.

Nataliya a Dragoman, BASF 21:27
Hi, John, I’m Nataliya. I really enjoyed your book. And to me, it’s not so much the question, but I really appreciated the tone in which you wrote it. Because Jerry’s point it was a window, a door an opportunity to see something, right. And when you when you wrote that I was walking down the hallway, like I saw you, I saw you and I think and I mean it in a bigger, broader sense of like, I saw you right. And, and that was important. And I also appreciate the way you wrote it, where the, because I think staying in that uncomfortable is very difficult. And the way you wrote it, you will lead the reader stay in the uncomfortable, right? Where you’re not trying, we’re not when I was reading it, I wasn’t trying to say what my personal experiences were like, you know, they kind of which is very different from a reader perspective, right? Like, you usually embody the book, you usually become the story and you get it, but it can’t you really let me come along with you. And I think I appreciate that. And I send the book to a friend of mine. And because I had, you know, I had the copy you signed, and then I had a copy that I purchased. So it’s really a huge thing. And I appreciate you kind of putting the steps because I think that’s the other piece of how do you then create a conversation without falling to the kind of default of wait and see, and it but also started the conversation, that change never happens from a place of comfort, but somehow around certain subjects. That’s what the expectation is. So I appreciate that. And I just want to say thank you, because it was really gave me an opportunity. And I feel like my brain added. There was an addition to kind of my experience. So thank you.

John Graham, Shaker Recruitment Marketing 23:16
I appreciate that feedback. And it’s, it’s awesome to hear that you felt like you were being chaperoned through an experience, right? Given given a tour, but also being immersed in the uncomfortable in a way that didn’t push you to what we call fragility responses, right, the shutdown the defensive that oh, this can’t be or the Me too, right? Oh, look at my look at my suffering, you know, and trying to compare. So I’m glad it sparked that. That openness, and the dialogue thereafter. So thank you.

Dwana Jones, Whirlpool 23:53
I’ll just share that I’m that friend that she sent your book to. So

John Graham, Shaker Recruitment Marketing 23:58
Oh, all right.

Dwana Jones, Whirlpool 23:59
Yeah, I just got it on Tuesday. So I haven’t read the book yet. I’ve started it and so I want to say she’s speaking in truth. She shared the book with me I’m embarking on a new journey in my career and I’m opening up in an environment that I know is going to be a heavy lift. So I’m looking forward to to reading your book.

John Graham, Shaker Recruitment Marketing 24:22
Thank you, Dwana. I hope you enjoy it and find some resources and tools in there for sure. But at least to hear your your shared experiences, our shared experiences spoken so enjoy.

Nicole Wormley, Danaher 24:34
Well I’ll jump in and I’m recovering from an allergy infection so my voice might go in and out. So I applaud everything about this book John. So those that those that don’t know so i have been telling acquisition year upon year upon year within the last 18-20-21 or so months, I took on an expanded role leading all things diversity attraction. So sitting the lens of early career It’s a lot easier folks love them some students, right? Then when you take that level of DE&I impact to the next level, with leaders that you engage with, in a very, very comfortable environment, now you’re engaging with an A, what could be a not so very comfortable environment. And oh, by the way, go go go change, change change. So I made a very conscious decision to read this book when I was on vacation. So I took me a nice expanded amount of time, one of two books, and it was fuel and not not just as a reminder of why I do what I do, and who I need to do it for, because it’s so much bigger than me, and the Danaher. It’s those folks that are coming behind me. But I think what you did for me was those one connecting the dots, and I use this, between history and the lived experience, history and data and facts, it helps to tell the story in ways I hadn’t been as much of a historian but thanks to you, I am now. So even reading myself more. So you didn’t think about the comment that you made Chris around, I had no idea. We all are on this journey, right. And my now intentionality around history to add to the commentary to add to the data, it’s, um, it’s proving very beneficial lets just say. And one of the things that one of my leaders said, he was very, his commentary was very similar to yours, Chris, when you opened up with like, I did not know, he read a few documentaries and a few books and said, I am there. But what he has not stopped doing is he is reading book after book, history of history. So he is one of probably my only white male leaders that said, not only that, I turned the corner, I’m keep walking. So I now use him as an example. And as an inspiration. So I, again, I applaud everything about this, because it’s not only helping me, it becomes something else that I get to sprinkle to leaders, it becomes something else that I get to say, and then no, and here’s why. So thank you, thank you, the student piece could not agree more. I use that as an opportunity to say read the book, I’ll let John’s word speak. But let me tell you how that comes to fruition internally. So I think those of us that are in attraction roles, we have a responsibility to keep it 100% real, because they will see all those things that he put in the book now how you are going to position it in a way that is gonna set them up for success, minimally, giving them what they can expect, what they might experience where there might be, or may not be resources so that they can make a conscious decision. You’re good. People just want to know what they’re up to, well, I wouldn’t say you’re good, it’s still gonna be an opportunity, but give folks the opportunity to know what they’re opting into. So your book, again, it fueled me in the midst of me looking to be refueled. And I can’t wait for your next book.

John Graham, Shaker Recruitment Marketing 27:51
Thank you. Thank you, and thank you. Yes, I am. I appreciate that. Nicole, it’s, um, it is, it is one thing to, to attract talent, right? I think, you know, our philosophy in this work of lived experience based approach to employer brand. And DE&I has been simply to say, we want to work backwards from your retention strategy, right. And so that if, if the people who you already have or not your biggest employer brand ambassadors, why not? because that’ll tell you everything you need to know about those coming in and why they’re going to leave. So let’s address that, right, let’s literally look at representation, let’s look at authenticity, let’s look at development and see whether your your culture gaps are, that is your barometer, your indicator, your leading indicator of what new talent is going to experience, and you can almost get it down to a science of how long it will take before they leave, unless you address these things. So I appreciate that and the lens that you’re looking at that through. And definitely feel free to let the book be the mouthpiece for you and follow up with additional information. But I also want to address the white leader. You mentioned, who is, you know, taking this, this journey seriously, and really going forward ahead. I often say that it’s, you know, if you were educated in America, unless you specialize in history, you have a deficient history education, right. And that is that is a fact. And in some cases by design. And so when I do talks at companies, when I do fireside chats, and we’re looking at this through a historical lens that adds context in places that most people didn’t get. There’s an there’s an education rather than an implication happening in which opens people up and wants them and they’re hungry and want to be fed more of this, because it’s a whole world that’s been hidden, you know, and that’s where history provides context. So I love the idea of examining what I also try and warn people against going straight to how I how do we fix this until you understand why. And history provides that that context to be able to inform your what and make your how better. So

Chris Hoyt, CXR 30:10
Yeah, I think I think it’s a really good point in terms of the the education system. And I’ll tell you that so the book club that that we’re meeting with right now, not all of the things we’ve done together have been a book, one of them was actually a Netflix documentary, and it was amend. And I have to tell you, there were a couple of moments when my partner and I were watching this for the book club, and we paused it and she would look over and he goes, I didn’t learn that. Nothing. I didn’t learn that. And we’ve looked at it. And sure enough, so I mean, there were there’s definitely that was a lightbulb moment for us thinking like, it’s almost like we’ve been raised to miss that or to gloss over that or to minimize that. And that’s when I was like, okay, we need to we need more information. We need a little more time to digest this and rethink sort of how we’re looking at things because we, we got it wrong. Yeah.

John Graham, Shaker Recruitment Marketing 30:59
Yeah, there’s there’s a documentary on HBO that I recommend to people. It’s not for the faint of heart, but it is probably the most comprehensive history education on this topic, right from colonization, forward, called Exterminate All the Brutes by Ralph Peck, who also did I am not your Negro, which was a documentary on James Baldwin. Either way, it’s a four part series on HBO max that I explained to people, when you watch this, you will be able to see the code in the matrix as it were right? It really gives you a crash course understanding in the context, the why the how, and the way that the construct has been set up, and what it’s built upon. In a very visually appealing and connecting way. So I highly recommend that one for those who want to go deeper into this, this, this work and understanding

Chris Hoyt, CXR 31:58
Good stuff. Well, John, I want to only give you a chance to take us out with an A you want to give us a website, you want to give us a reference, anything you want to sort of point us to.

John Graham, Shaker Recruitment Marketing 32:07
For sure. Yeah. For those who want to share this, this work, definitely point them to plantationtheory.com. Also, as we’re talking about employer brand talent attraction, through the lived experience based approach, I’m happy to talk more about that can visit shaker.com And look at our diversity and inclusion work there. And other than that, if you ever want to reach out on a chat, something hit you you’re in a meeting, you didn’t know how to process this thing, or you’re looking for ways to expand that you’d hit me up on LinkedIn. I’m there probably too much. So

Chris Hoyt, CXR 32:46
We’ll put an overlay there with your URL that I want to thank you John not just for your time, but also for the book. We really appreciate it.

John Graham, Shaker Recruitment Marketing 32:52
My pleasure. Thank you all for reading and investing in the time.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 32:57
For everybody who’s still dialed in and listening are wrapping up that podcast jog. I hope you’re gonna dial in. We’re going to be back on October 12. We’re going to do a live podcast with Joe Wallen. He is the director of talent acquisition over Polaris and we’re talking about how he fell into talent acquisition we’ve all got those great nobody went to school to be a recruiter. So we’re gonna we’re going to hear another good story about how people fell into that we hope you join us live until then we’ll see you guys online and we’ll see in the CXR Community. Thanks

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