E382: Talent Intelligence vs Talent Analytics with Visier’s Ian Cook

Talent Intelligence vs Talent Analytics -- how is the space and language around data evolving? Join Chris Hoyt as he chats with Visier's VP of Research & Strategy, Ian Cook.

E382: Talent Intelligence vs Talent Analytics with Visier’s Ian Cook

Talent Intelligence vs Talent Analytics -- how is the space and language around data evolving? Join Chris Hoyt as he chats with Visier's VP of Research & Strategy, Ian Cook.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 0:00
So we have it’s a funny story. So we have not my story, the one Jerry just told we have ancestry.com I think it is family account. And it is open. And you do get these weird alerts of like there’s a partial match of a picture that could be somebody related to you. And that’s but I haven’t dug into it. I mean, I have a friend at at a 23. And me, you know, you do that swab and the DNA comes back, and I think they’re part Bull Terrier or something something weird. And like, I don’t even I don’t, yeah, you wonder if any of it’s even true or not. But you guys both have a, like a heritage site online or something.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 0:36
I do, how about you Ian?

Ian Cook, Visier 0:38
Yeah, my father and mother dug quite deep into the family tree. So we definitely definitely have a long clan, which is sort of it’s called the Austin. So that’s my mother’s side of the family, we go back to 1700s. My father traced us back to 1700s in a small cemetery in an island off the coast of Scotland. So I have a I have a sense of where we come from. But I’ve never done the DNA test. I think that would be I might come out quite linear in terms of you know, fully Scandinavian and a little bit of Scots in there. So yeah.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 1:14
it’s I mean, all that’s pretty cool. I just I wonder if we get to a certain age where it’s interesting to us like it’s just not interesting until a certain because it does seem like all the people in my family are interested or have a particular demographic. Yeah.

Speaker 2 1:25
I think you’re onto something there, Chris. My brother’s radar after he was like mid 40s. Like, Oh, I wonder where I come from.

Speaker 1 1:32
So it could be, could be alright, well, you guys, you’re ready to get gone? Sure. All right. Well, here we go.

CXR Announcer 1:42
Welcome to the CXR channel, our premier podcasts for talent acquisition and Talent Management. listen in as the CSR community discusses a wide range of topics focused on attracting, engaging and retaining the best talent. We’re glad you’re here.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 1:55
All right, everybody, welcome. Welcome back to the recruiting community podcast. I am Shaggy and I have with me, my partner in crime. Fred, would you be Shaggy? Would you be Shaggy? Or would I be?

Gerry Crispin, CXR 2:23
I look a little Shaggy.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 2:25
Or we can do a Scooby you could be the Scooby guy who’s gonna do Scooby Dooby Doo. Anyway, so welcome back to recruiting community podcasts. If you haven’t figured it out. already. We have a little bit of fun with this, we have no sponsors. There is no intent here other than to have some fun conversations and share those. So you can be sure that when we have somebody on the show, it’s because we’re really interested in what they have to say. And we think you might be too. If you’re interested in getting invited onto the show, or having us pull somebody into the show that you know, just let us know, you can send us an email info at CXR dot works. Or if you’re already connected to Gerry or to myself, obviously, you can reach out on LinkedIn, we’re pretty good about that. If you haven’t figured it out already. We’re live today, we are streaming. Where are we streaming, we’re streaming on YouTube, we’re streaming on the Facebook, we’re streaming on LinkedIn, we’re streaming on the Twitter or the x or the whatever the hell, that weirdo is calling it today. But you can fit you can figure all that out. But if you are in a place where there is a chat window, and usually that’s just LinkedIn, add a question in there, tell us a little, put your LinkedIn profile. And we’ll do our best to make sure that we connect with you. And if we miss you, during the live podcast, we’ll make sure that we circle back and answer those questions. We do a pretty good job of that. Let’s see chat on Facebook, LinkedIn. A little bit of housekeeping. So Gerry, let’s talk about we got a big week. We got a lot of events going on. Finishing out August, August is a big month for us. Believe it or not, we’ve got a lecture series. We do these monthly six our lectures and I think we’ve got a link Hold on I’ll throw this up. CXR dot works slash events and that fancy. But August 24, we’ve got Bernice Feller-Thijm, who is a culture and inclusion strategist, and renowned team performance coach. Now she’s going to present a session on being an inclusive leader at any level within your organization. Gerry, you want to take a guess how many members of ours are registered and it’s on their calendar to attend lecture this Thursday?

Gerry Crispin, CXR 4:22

Chris Hoyt, CXR 4:22
424 members. It’s crazy. So the online meetings and certainly the leadership sessions have gotten quite popular. Certainly here with our members. So a couple of things diversity, leadership inclusion, I think those are going to be kind of the topics and the tags for that. So if you haven’t checked it out, please do. So. Again. CXR dot works slash events for those who are listening and not watching. We also have a good friend of ours. Maya Huber, who is the CEO of TaTiO is going to do a she’s going to teach a workshop for us competency based recruiting and that is the 30th that that’s coming up. So if you aren’t one of the 30 or so companies that are already have their teams that are registered to go ahead and attend that for some reason, or you can’t make it don’t worry, we’re, of course going to have that out in the library the following week. The tags I would put on that would be candidate experience, operations and sourcing. So did I miss anything? No. No. Gerry’s on a cruise control when I do the spiel II for the

he’s like, yes, yes, whatever. Let’s get to the conversation. All right. So why don’t we we’ve got a great guest today. Here we go. Is Ian Cook, who’s coming in to us from from Visier. Ian, how are you?

Ian Cook, Visier 5:32
I’m doing well. Thanks, Chris. Thanks for having me on the show.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 5:35
We’re happy to have you. We’ve got a fun topic today. Let’s jump in really quickly. And for those who don’t know you, we’re gonna give you the opportunity to kind of pitch a little bit about yourself and maybe explain Visier along the way there. So give us kind of the escalator, pitch,

Ian Cook, Visier 5:48
The escalator pitch. I love how you describe that. It’s pretty simple about myself, I spent, I spent the early part of my career working in organization development, like looking at how do we help organizations, the people in them thrive and perform at their best. And I ran into what I described as the CFO problem, or you’d have a program, you’d have an idea, you’d know it was going to work, you couldn’t unleash the money from finance, because they’re like, sounds interesting, but prove this is going to be good. So that put me back into the world of data and analysis and evidence, how do I win, even just stay equal in that debate with the CFO to, to really connect to what what’s human about performance and, and honor the human but do it with evidence. And so fast forward 20 years to businesses later, I work with Visier, as an expert in that space. And what we do is we make that access to that evidence that ends information that means you know, you’re doing the right thing for your people strategy. We make it easy and available. The mechanics are kind of simple. You bring a whole bunch of data together, you prepare it for use, you run your analysis, and you share it with people make decisions. Old World That was lots of bits and pieces, a lot of people learning about together, new world Visier basically automates that pipeline, we can get people up and answering their really key questions very fast, very effectively.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 7:13
Yeah, and I’d Well, I love your approach of like, I need some data to sort of get us there. But even so. So, for the purpose of the next 20 minutes or so can you kind of break down the difference between? And I think so talent, intelligence and talent analytics for those who are watching?

Ian Cook, Visier 7:30
Sure. There’s a long debate was, and I think it’s, I think, the way I look at this is, let’s not need to categorize what are we trying to do? We’re trying to help the business make the best use of people. There’s a component where you’re looking inside your business, that’s where people are effectively started, like, Who do we need to keep? If we move Person A into row B? Is that going to be great? Like those are the decisions we make hold a, a bit of evidence makes those better? Like we know that now that was an idea when I started and it’s going to 20 years on, we know that then you get into the well, what if I don’t have Person A in my business, they’re actually in the market around me. So you get a whole bunch of questions around the context for the business, a whole set of questions around the market, the price availability. And that was for me is where talent intelligence comes in, which is usually labor market, labor market costs, availability. Again, I’m forgetting his name. Super nice guy whose crrated talent intelligence community, Toby Culshaw, there you go. I just needed to play for time when it comes back. Do we call shop and you know, he’s built out for large enterprises, literally a ton Intelligence Group looking at where should we be located?

If I’m gonna put an Amazon warehouse somewhere. I don’t want to put it an hour’s drive from my labor force, because they won’t come. And so the land might be because again, things happen where all the land is super cheap. Let’s build it here. It’s like, oh, we can’t stuff it. Like, Oh, I wonder why it it’s two hours on a bus.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 9:04
It’s funny. I remember early earlier in my career, so they were when I was at AT&T, we were going to open these call centers, brand new call centers, and we had three different cities. And they put me on a plane to go to these three, I had no idea what we were doing. All I knew was go figure out if you could find talent to fill these call centers in these three cities.

Ian Cook, Visier 9:25
Let’s just call that analog talent, intelligence. That was pre digital, kind of the way.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 9:33
Oh, there’s a bus stop. That’s good. We can get people here like it was that it was literally that level of can we fill the jobs here?

Ian Cook, Visier 9:40
Because it’s pre-Google Maps, right? Yeah, for sure. So so that mental intelligence has been ongoing for a really long time. It’s just now that data is scraped mobile and ubiquitous. So you don’t have to go. You can grab it from the web and then process and then you’re making big strategic decisions. I think of it as a component of good people. It’s my way of describing talent analytics people, using data about people to support business performance.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 10:13
Where does competitive intelligence fall in that? On that dimension?

Ian Cook, Visier 10:18
Yeah, brilliant question Gerry, from for me that’s in the talent intelligence place. It’s like, I’m, who am I competing for? For my right now? My gen AI prompt engineer? Like, what’s Amazon paying them? What can I pay them? Where should I put my? Where should I put my, my locations? Or should I? Should I do that remote? Should I do that hybrid? Should I do that some other way?

Gerry Crispin, CXR 10:41
Yeah, I see. I see it as kind of a dimension where the business kind of issues of where we should be physically, given our policies and practices. On the other side, the kind of the people analytics is really what’s what’s current and what’s happening right now. And this competitive intelligence has to do to me with as we as we look at both ends of that spectrum, you know, who should we be looking at from a talent acquisition point of view

Ian Cook, Visier 11:15
Totally. I see them as part of the overall family. Because there’s no point in doing competitive intelligence, if you’re not on top of who you have, like, you gotta have your house in order for that stuff makes any sense. And again, the whole skills conversation, I was talking to folks who are based out in Carolina, than the Carolinas, and they basically said hybrids are given in the Carolinas because because everybody out there is doing hybrid. I can’t, people won’t apply for my job. If I say it’s five days in the office. And so that’s the kind of competitive intelligence you’re you’re talking about. Gerry is like, comparing work, work patterns, work offers benefits, so that you know, how to get the talent you need. I don’t know your insight. What’s the point in looking outside?

Chris Hoyt, CXR 12:02
Well, I mean I would think that that specific topic right now is just exploding from from the intel standpoint, right? Because you got a lot of CEOs are now saying, just kidding. We’re Nick, we’re gonna need you back a little bit more than we thought we did. And then you have some who are going, “Oops, we’re really sorry. Please stop quitting. We’ll let you work remote” like trying to fix that puzzle out.

Ian Cook, Visier 12:19
Totally trying to figure that puzzle out. And you’ve probably heard me Chris does this look at the evidence. So there’s a guy called Nick Bloom from Stanford regular poster on LinkedIn. And he’s just going by the numbers and work hybrid, for the portion of the population that hybrid is available. Hybrid with a kind of three day core block has become the de facto. And because again, I come back to the evidence because often HR has been roiled back and forth by What did my CEO read on the plane? What was the latest buzz article that all the venture capitalists are passing around amongst each other. And so you get this completely ridiculous HR policy that is driven by somebody’s passion, as opposed to, like, they wouldn’t make a goal. Sometimes they do make financial bets that way. But they really aren’t very well. So like, why are we operating our businesses that way?

Chris Hoyt, CXR 13:13
Oh, go ahead. Gerry. I have a look.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 13:14
I was just I was just thinking, but there’s so many unintended consequences that impact the evidence, if you will, so. So when somebody comes up with oh, well, productivity goes down, I said, yeah, if you got shitty management, you’re gonna have, you’re gonna have really bad productivity if they do not know how to deal with remote workers on their team. And fundamentally, who’s, who’s investing in teaching those managers how to how to manage in a variety of different contexts, so that they, you know, so that we can we can make the best productivity for everyone, as well as make their lives better, you know, from a human point of view.

Ian Cook, Visier 13:57
100% Gerry.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 13:59
but it just, it’s just easier to get upset. Because nobody liked our headline, or, or to manage or to build policy around what Wall Street wants us to think or the tech bro culture wants us to think or the, like, it’s just easier that way. Right?

Ian Cook, Visier 14:13
It is, but it’s not effective.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 14:17
Bit of an understatement, right?

Ian Cook, Visier 14:20
You know, I think like an investor, I mean, OVB I worked way back in early in my career, I worked with McKinsey’s as a consulting, so I was alongside McKinsey partners. And they, they dropped a bunch of wisdom, I learned so much. They learned more, I learned more from them than they learned from me. It was a it was a real bonus in my career. But one of them said, you know, act like an owner and wait to get fired was one of their mantras. And so I’ve always operated in my business, like what would I do if I own this? And you have to be a little bit conscious that you don’t but at the same time, so we’re like, Well, I can’t be wrong because so and so what Wall Street said I should do So you’re abdicating your leadership responsibility if you operate that way.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 15:04
Yeah, well, there’s way too many CEOs who don’t get account get held accountable and don’t get fired. So

Ian Cook, Visier 15:08
I think that’s changing, like back into this whole notion of talent, intelligence, talent analytics. We’ve seen massive, massive interest from a lot of investment houses. We we have aggregation on the 25 million employee records that we have, we’ve got pay records for those 25 million people. There, we don’t give away specific detail as in which employer is paying what, we have strong controls over how we aggregate that up, but they want to know is like, is this pay escalation that’s going on the press actually coming through in the data?

Chris Hoyt, CXR 15:43
Well, I love that. So I guess I would ask you to, for example, right? So so in what ways I guess her talent intelligence, or talent analytics, even sort of shaping recruiting strategies at big companies, so you’re sitting in a chair, and have sat in some chairs, where you get to be part of that right here, you get you get insight into that? Can you share a success story, or maybe an example where we’re something like the data driven insights have actually made a significant difference in the strategy or in the roleplay?

Ian Cook, Visier 16:12
Yeah, I’ll give you a great example, because I think it’s an inside and an outside. So it’s an engineering company we work with, they run manufacturing plants, kind of middle of America. And they understood that they needed to make work attractive to the women in their geography in order to actually have sufficient staffing. So they have the market intelligence, they have the understanding of like, it’s a physical plant, I can’t move it, I can’t use people remotely like they have to touch the machine. So I’ve got a population around my plant that is a certain shade. So I’ve got to have women coming to work. They looked at their internal process, and they saw that resignation rates for women were super high, like, well, so they went to say, why is that? And so basically, it was a shift timing. It wasn’t it wasn’t the work experience, it wasn’t the work, it wasn’t the way they were managed. It was literally I can’t deal with my kids or my caregiving responsibilities, and get to work. So they went to the business and said, What happens if we change the shift time, so like, no, machines are running, but it’s okay. Like, the the shift timing was literally just a hangover from like, probably the Henry Ford tradition, like just, we do it this way, because we’ve done it this way. And so a good team with evidence of the market and internal dynamics and an open operations leader with a, you know, a collaborative relationship. They shift their dynamic, they half their resignation rate for women, and I love it, because it brings women to work, it pays attention to getting the work done. It’s based on evidence, and it made the business successful.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 17:49
Yeah, it’s the right energy towards the right output. But I mean, that it’s a great example, but somebody had to overcome a challenge to implement. So I mean, can you share a little bit like, like challenges that maybe orgs face when trying to implement TI or TA? I mean, if you want, this is not a plug for Visier, But I mean, if there is a way that you can share, and we don’t we don’t have any of these questions set up advance just full disclosure, right. But if Visier’s clients sort of overcome those hurdles…Like, what are those? Because I love the story of this. I’m at my organization, we’re a little bit of a shit show over here. I think it might fix that, how do I get a solution implemented? How do I get past hurdles to fix that?

Ian Cook, Visier 18:27
The first hurdle people hit often and it’s in their minds, as opposed to realize, oh, I don’t think my data is good enough, because they’ve been operating in their HRIS, they haven’t had good data management, I can go well, I don’t really know what’s in my data. The truth is, it only gets good through use. And, and again, we’ve seen it, we’ve seen the people who’ve tried to clean for cleaning sake. And that just, it gets messy faster than they can clean like it is literally trying to clean a stream of dirt, you can’t do it. What happens when you use it. And so the key piece is being able to use it quickly, not having to go down the the old fashioned route of big data warehouses and these sort of monster projects. Nobody would build their own HRIS these days, like nobody would go out and say, Oh, I can build Workday, like nobody would do it. The traditional way has been that everybody built by hand, their analytic stack, that a shifting. So again, our analytic stack basically allows you to run your data in, clean it and start using the bits that are good enough in matters of weeks and months. And then the second piece of adoption, Chris is the business then accepting that your data is right. And that’s where the choice of technology and how you do it, like waiting two years to build something and then show it to the business they go. This isn’t right. Jane’s missing. Core as a technology like ours is like, oh, as you run it in, we find that Jane is missing. We fix it before we give it to the business. So it’s a very different mindset. It’s more iterative, it’s more on use as you go. And then you build up in tiers. Let’s get headcount. Right. Let’s get resignations right. Let’s get diversity right. And then you start to expand. So it’s a very different muscle for HR, because they’re often we do a program, we lift everything, we shift everything at once. Whereas it’s an Agile process to build out analytics, you get a core, you expand, you expand, you expand, and then the value just grows.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 20:23
And you clean it. Go ahead, Gerry.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 20:26
Yeah, I was thinking, so as you were talking, so where do you see the challenges over the next year or two years when when we’re talking about, you know, data that gets converted to analytics that gets converted to inferences and intelligence that gets converted to decisions? So where in this, this vast thing do you see the biggest challenge for the next couple of years?

Ian Cook, Visier 20:51
I think you nailed it, Gerry, is no it often people analytics has been described as well, I’ve got a dashboard, and HR has a dashboard. That’s where you know, we’re done, we’ve got a static set of data, the business can look at it, we’re good. Really what we’re having to do with the world we’re in with hybrid, far more tailored to work experiences where it’s not one size fits all, means that the manager exactly as you describe, both of you that management interface has to be better. And the evidence we have in the data can help it be better. But instead of it being a dashboard, saying Please, madam or Mr. Manager, look at my dashboard, understand it and do something useful with it. I don’t know what that is, but you know, that’s on you. It’s actually targeting that information to the manager that says, you know, use a customer example, they know that their top talent gets kind of a little loose around the two year mark. So they simply pipe to their managers, here are your people in the agitated window, you need to have career conversations with them, you need to make sure they’ve got a known path, you need to make sure they’re anchored to the business. The data flows through the HR business partners know what it’s about, you know, what they should do with it. The managers have the conversations, that’s all recorded. So they’ve systematized good practice, driven from evidence. And so that again, they’re one of our better customers, but the field has to get there.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 22:21
Yeah, we need to we need to upskill managers to manage and, and get them out of hiring, they should just figure out, we should just figure out that they need to learn how to manage anybody we give them.

Ian Cook, Visier 22:34
Pretty much, yes.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 22:35
There is, but I do want to pull it back a little bit. Because you said something that really resonated with me, because I’ve taken on some data projects in my career. Gerry, you’ve been part of the CandE’s since since the inception, and convincing organizations right to be part of or be measured, or, you know, I think you’re 100% right. A big stumbling block is people don’t think their data is good enough, or their processes are good enough to even start that I did that’s such a call out because it’s just well, it’s just garbage. Like I’m not gonna really have anything to do. And I think that probably stops a lot of organizations from really leaning in where they can make a difference.

Ian Cook, Visier 23:10
Yeah, and yes, totally Chris, but it’s, it’s at the point now, where the leaders in the field have gone through that. We’ve got, we’ve got client organizations that are saving millions of dollars, we’ve got client organizations that are at presenting to the C suite, they are direct reports to the CHRO and part of the strategy shaping for the business. You know, worrying that your data is not good enough. So you should do nothing. Like I don’t I personally don’t get it. I just don’t see how that world persists, because somebody is going to walk down the corridor one day, and so these people over here, they’re getting performance out of their data. What are we doing is like, Oh, I don’t think it’s good enough. It’s like, so what are you doing? Like, again, just ignore it. We’ve been ignoring it for about 10 years. So for me, it feels like we just the time has passed where you can ignore the problem. And it’s not as hard to fix as people think like it, it can get played out as it’s really hard. But it’s, again, that technologies using AI using a whole bunch of known processes, we automatically cleanse a whole bunch of stuff without people having to pour through lists of spreadsheets, so people’s assumptions around what it takes to clean or not. Again, if they haven’t understood what technology is allowing these days, they don’t know how easy it is to actually process.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 24:32
Well I think you have to start somewhere to I mean, that’s the other it will never get better just sitting by itself. Like you have to start somewhere.

Ian Cook, Visier 24:38
Yeah, it’s like that messy cupboard in the house. It doesn’t sort itself.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 24:43
So let me ask you and I think Gerry sort of started a little bit of this, but you know, we will typically ask folks like yourself to come in like what what does it look like five years from now? Like and maybe not even that far, maybe it’s just three years because we’ve got all of this AI we’ve got all this intelligence and machine learning and all Like, how does this impact sort of the landscape of talent analytics in three years, maybe five years?

Ian Cook, Visier 25:07
No, I would go with three years, Chris. It’s delivered to the manager. And it’s delivered in the flow of work. Basically, because the data is not data is not. Data for data’s sake is meaningless. Data that shapes a decision that drives an action that nudges an improvement in behavior or direction is what makes it works. And so what we’re working on with our clients is not more data, more dashboards, it’s actually precision of the right data to the right person at the right time. And AI allows that interface to be more conversational, we just released our our Gen AI assistant called V, we’re in beta with customers, there’s a lot of complexities to it, it’s not just log the data in and see what the bot says, that’s actually incredibly risky. If you’re thinking of doing that do not you will be offside with all kinds of legislation.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 26:09
Just do whatever the robots telling you to do, it’ll be fine.

Ian Cook, Visier 26:12
You need to have protections in place. So no, but we’re at that stage. So then you think about the manager that Gerry’s talking about, you know, it’s explaining to them how to keep a key player or why they might want to have a career conversation, or how to think about structuring pay to maximize the output for the team. And the leaders will be, it’ll, it’ll be the sort of the guidance system across the organization. And it will be driven from evidence, it’s happened in the customer world, it’s happened in the health world, it happens a bit in the finance world. So

again, the leaders will be there in three years. Anybody else who knows, but I recommend people start now, because you got a long way to catch up.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 26:50
And you’re touching on on the issues around transparency at different levels of the organization, because one of the problems we see is that, you know, at higher levels, they they kind of hold on to some information that they should be pushing down. You know, I, as a recruiter, I would love before I go into an intake interview with the hiring manager who’s just opened a req, I want to know how many people he’s hired in that role for the last five years, and where are they now. I want to know, to some degree and index of, of his or her ability to develop and engage and keep individuals and manage them over time. And fundamentally, if they don’t, then I and my hiring HR partner need to be a little bit more attuned to what I’m going to do in hiring someone that he, that he won’t burn out. Or she won’t burn out, whatever it is..

Ian Cook, Visier 27:59
You’re actually hitting on one of my favorite stories from ours, so we have a talent acquisition capability, we can we can look at the funnel, and more. And when we launched that the first five or six clients, we were actually really surprised at how much the recruiters just looked at the HRIS data. And they were doing what you said Gerry, like that person I hired, are they still with us? That person I hired? Do they still work for the hiring manager? Let me look at the history of the people who are working for the high manager and working. We hadn’t anticipated how much was hidden from the recruiter. And the benefit of actually giving them a window into that, again, we are leading clients who are let’s just say they’re more experienced in what data goes to who, we have incredible protections in the data. So that whole worry about wrong people seeing the wrong stuff is not part of our world. But we were really surprised how much the recruiters were actually accessing the what we call the core data. Exactly for the point you’re making Gerry, like it actually made them better.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 28:57
And that’s what I think it’s we need to elevate them and then hold them accountable. But if you can’t Don’t give them the data, how do you expect them to be moving the needle on diversity or engaging and challenging the hiring manager around the broader goals of the corporation? I just I just find it crazy. So I love the fact that you know, your your point of moving in that direction is there.

Ian Cook, Visier 29:22
No. Yeah. And again, like the you know, the leaders are there. It’s part of our role is to sort of translate from the leaders around to everybody and helping that become accessible and achievable for the masses.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 29:35
Yeah, it’s powerful stuff downstream. Certainly and let me ask you, we asked we asked this of all of our guests before we wrap up. If you were going to write a book about the topic today the state of things today, what would you title that book?

Ian Cook, Visier 29:53
Oh, that’s a great something like for a fistful of evidence. I don’t know.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 30:02
Are you a Western fan?

Ian Cook, Visier 30:05
I’m a movie fan. And so you know, it’s it’s like I live in the, in the, you know, on my positive days like this is happening. It’s great. It’s amazing. I’m blessed to be around some incredible practitioners, you can see the things they’re doing. And so there’s this amazing pioneer community. And then there’s other times where you’re, you’re talking to groups like, oh, that sounds a little bit advanced, you’re like, No, this was this is a common practice 10 years ago, you just haven’t kept up with it. So I live in those. So it feels like it’s got a little bit of that, you know, tension of a Western.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 30:41
Yeah, if I had sound effects, we do that. Wa,wa, wa.

Ian Cook, Visier 30:45
Perfect. And, and, and it’s like, you know, where could we be if we had a fistful of evidence, because I think hrs always been under misunderstood and undervalued and underplayed, in terms of how its effect it can have on the business. Like, I’m just, I’m passionate about analytics, not for the analytics, but actually, because how it elevates the human experience of work. And, and that’s, that’s been the driver for me for my entire career. It’s why I got into this place in the first place. It was to stop the CFO making daft decisions that hurt people, whereas the evidence helps you make the right decision with more balance. So, you know, that’s my whole kind of mission is if only we can actually grasp this, we can actually elevate the human part of business to have its rightful place. So that’s why I think for a fistful of evidence, like where would we be if we had a fistful of evidence?

Chris Hoyt, CXR 31:41
I love it. Well, yeah. Who would you give the first signed copy to?

Ian Cook, Visier 31:45
Oh, that’s another great question. I would probably have to give it to Jac Fitz-Enz. Because he’s responsible for showing me that this path is possible.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 31:55
I love that. I love that. All right, well, hey, hang out Ian. And we’re super grateful for your time today. much gratitude for you to come in. I know you’re busy man.

Ian Cook, Visier 32:03
It’s a joy to talk to you, Chris. Appreciate it. Thanks, Gerry as well.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 32:06
All right, we’re gonna put you in the greenroom don’t go anywhere. All right. And in the greenroom you go, just really quick reminder, anybody, if you missed it, the beginning cxr.org/events, you can figure out what’s going on. We actually have a list of all of the upcoming podcast shows out there as well. So if you’re kind of interested in maybe some of those topics, you can book those you can RSVP those so that you get a calendar reminder, we’ve started doing that you could subscribe obviously to the show anywhere that you are listening to the podcast on most of your favorite channels. And with all of that we’re just going to say goodbye to everybody. We’ll see you next week.

CXR Announcer 32:39
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