Chris Hoyt, CXR 
All right, so we’ve got him for a few minutes while he’s in. I’m excited about our guest today super excited. We got a returner, and a newer. That’s going to be on the vocabulary lessons for free today, by the way. But Gerry, you are you are coming to us remote you were on the road until we were here I

Gerry Crispin, CXR 0:16
I am on the road, I’m in Phoenix, it’s going to be about 110 degrees out here. And hr.com is putting on a conference that’s primarily focused on talent acquisition. A lot of the usual suspects are here. Which is always fun. And, and probably a couple 100 folks who are going to come and enjoy the learning.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 0:43
And that’s and I love that and I couldn’t be there add some stuff at home that kept me on this trip. So I was supposed to be jealous. For those who weren’t dialed in earlier. I missed the they missed the dinner conversation. So I’m quite jealous of what Gerry for dinner last night. But Gerry, you’ve also got you got another aspect to that I’m a little jealous of you got roundtables going on today. Yeah,

Gerry Crispin, CXR 1:02
Yeah, there’s, there’s a whole series of roundtables in the middle of the conversation. And there’s three or four different times when those roundtables will be filled by facilitators and hopefully, attendees, so it’ll be enjoyable and hopefully a lot of interesting learning.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 1:21
Yeah, looking forward to the output. We got some members there. And of course, Gerry’s facilitating some of those tables. So you will get a real output. We won’t chat GPT it you’ll get some some real details. Good stuff. All right. Where are we? Are we ready to get started? I can’t tell you how long Gerry is going to be on the show. But But hang with us. Oh, he’s out. He’s out. All right. Well, let’s get started. You two. Ready? Yeah. All right. Let’s go.

CXR Announcer 1:46
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Chris Hoyt, CXR 2:00
All right, welcome back, everybody to another edition of recruiting community. I’m Chris Hoyt, your host for the next 20 minutes or so. We have two guests today with a topic that I just love to talk about. So I’m going to keep the intro piece a little bit shy, a little bit short and just remind you CXR.works/podcast, it’s all of these these current and previous materials, you’re gonna see what we have up ahead from a podcast perspective. I’m also going to remind you, we are live streaming on a couple of different channels. We’ve got Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter, I think YouTube as well. If you see a chat box, you can join us and ask questions or chime in, if you’re so inclined, even just say hello, you can put your LinkedIn profile in there. And be sure to connect with other folks who are on who who may be listening or dialed in as well. But again, if you can’t catch the whole thing, if your treadmill workout ends before we do, don’t feel bad, you can always go back to the website and grab the rest of that. So with that, I do want to jump right in because we’ve got a kind of an interesting concept today about employment brand and employee experience. And this is a fun topic. I want to welcome back first we’ll do it one at a time and do quick intro. Susan LaMotte, welcome back to the show.

Susan LaMotte, Exaqueo 3:25
Thanks for having me back. Chris. Great to see you.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 3:27
Great to have you. So before we introduce your partner in crime today, do you want to give everybody just kind of a quick escalator pitch on who you are? And why the heck should we be listening to what you say today?

Susan LaMotte, Exaqueo 3:39
Yeah, for sure. So hi, everybody, I’m Susan them. I’m the founder and CEO of Exaqueo Oh, we are an employer brand and experience consulting firm. And we sit at the intersection of where business meets behavior. So if you’re looking to focus on the future, then you’re tired of doing the same old thing where the right partner for you and that’s part of our conversation today is what’s coming next.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 4:01
Good stuff and I want to remind everybody to Thanks for reminding me Isisha and Susan it’s it is a good call out that this is not a quid pro quo. pay to play. We have Susan and her cohort today on because and Shannon because we actually appreciate what they have to say we appreciate the work that they do. We think it’s cool and it deserves some more eyeballs. So it’s a good call out there. And we’re gonna invite in here we go. Let’s flip that switch. There she is Shannon. Switching on the top there Shannon. Welcome. Welcome to the show.

Shannon Smedstad, Exaqueo 4:30
Thank you.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 4:32
All right, so it is your turn in the spotlight. So we’re gonna give you full screen here. Why don’t you give everybody sort of the pitch and a little bit of background on you know where you came from before you were at Exaqueo and and what exactly that you do Shannon?

Shannon Smedstad, Exaqueo 4:45
Sure. Happy to. My name is Shannon Smedstad. And I lead the experience practice at Exaqueo, I’ve worked in talent acquisition, employer brand and employee communications for nearly 25 years as spent more than a decade at GEICO and helped build guy goes first ever employer brand, then went and got global experience at CBD which is now part of Gartner. Before coming over to work at Exaqueo I’m in a consulting capacity. So I wanted to take my in house experience and take that and sort of scale it and start to help clients and leaders and organizations all over the world think about their own employee experience, and how we can mark it and communicate it and in order to attract talent who will thrive inside their unique organizations. So a little bit about me and a little bit about what I do.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 5:37
I love that. So I’m gonna play Oh, we got somebody says hello here. See if we can put that on the screen, Gabby, thanks for joining in from Tulsa, Oklahoma. So we’re happy to have you so feel free again, if you’re if you’re watching us live, and there’s a chat box, not just to say hi. But if you’ve got questions for these two, don’t waste it, there’s a great chance here for you to go jump in and ask these two because I gotta tell you, they’re pretty smart. And they’ve got an interesting topic. So I’m gonna play a little bit of devil’s advocate for you both. Having been an employer brand professional, you know, I have a somewhat of an understanding of putting together an EVP, write that code promise and and really sort of setting the stage for what you want your your candidates to think of the organization. So so let’s start there. And just I’ll ask Shannon, I’ll ask you, because you went last on the intro. But when when we say if I if my organization is to come to you and say, we just need you to slap together an EVP for us. Here’s what we want folks to think of the organization. And here’s, here’s kind of where we see ourselves in five years. How long does that take you to put together?

Shannon Smedstad, Exaqueo 6:45
So in true consulting, the answer is it depends. So slapping it together is, gosh, that just like makes me itchy. So I think it depends on the size of the organization, what what are the challenges? What is it that we’re hoping that the EVP is going to help us solve? And really getting at what is it that we’re really trying to do? What is it that we’re really trying to solve for? And when we think about EVP, or when a client comes to us, we’re actually thinking of exactly what beyond EVP. Really, what is the relationship that people have with your organization? What is the relationship we want employees and candidates to have with the organization, and then starting with the insight, so some of our clients or potential clients come to us and they want really deep insights, because they view the employer brand work, not just as a can you slap this together, talent attraction campaign, that they’re viewing it much more of this is our strategic talent strategy, our strategic platform. And we see this as an opportunity to transform the people experience, not just putting something out in the market to continue to get at volume as an example. So I think there’s a bigger conversation that we have to really understand. Where is the organization? What’s prompting the challenge? What’s prompting change? Why do they see this themselves someplace in five years? I would have a lot of questions before I said, this is how long it’s going to take us to slap it together for you.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 8:26
Can you level set a little bit on when you say, people experience, right? What does that mean to you?

Shannon Smedstad, Exaqueo 8:34
Oh, gosh, I mean, it’s, I’ll share and then Susan, please feel free the people experiences all of the ways. So let me hit pause. So one of the things when I’m talking to my team, it’s what do we want people to know, feel and do? So when you’re a candidate? From the first time someone learns about your organization, what do we want them to know, feel and do? How do we engage all the different senses? What are the things that they see? What do they hear about us? What do they know about us? What are all of the ways that we’re communicating from that whole candidate unit from understanding awareness you’ve applied? And then that employee experience what do we want to continue to educate our employees on what do we want them to know feel and do across the entire experience from New Hire and just building that relationship with our organization just building that relationship with their team to now I’ve been here a while I’m telling you, I’m growing my career through if I transition inside or outside so it’s all of the know feel and do across the entire experience that we’re having from candidate to employee or from you know, hire to retire?

Chris Hoyt, CXR 9:43
Yeah, I love it’s like the soup to nuts. Right delivery there, but I love that I love the full picture. And not just sort of compartmentalizing that piece. Susan, would you would you add anything to that?

Susan LaMotte, Exaqueo 9:55
The only thing I’d add is I was listening to Gretchen Rubin. She was on deck shepherds are armchair expert podcast. If you don’t know, he, he’s amazing he is the best guest in Gretchen Rubin is famous for her research and happiness. And she wrote the Happiness Project. And Her most recent book is about uncovering happiness using your senses. And to me, this is what gets at the core of the people experience. Because think about your spouse, your partner, your friend, that happy hour, who’s so frustrated in their job. It’s all rooted in their senses, right? They either told something that made them feel terrible, they saw something that made them feel terrible, right? Or their physical experience. Maybe they were forced to endure the hour long commute to go into the office just to stare at zoom all day long, right? So that to me, is people’s experience. And it’s also the difference between slapping together an EVP right? And this idea of like, let’s just put content out there and tell people to come work for us to really strategically stopping and saying, what kind of experience do people have right now? Right? We can uncover that through research? And what experience do we want them to have? The that kind of strategy, that’s what’s going to move your career as a recruiting leader, or an employer, employer brand leader, building a campaign slapping something together, that’s not gonna move the dial for you.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 11:15
So what I hear you saying is, it’s not it’s not necessarily just about getting some budget allocated, and then finding an agency or finding a partner to come in and build something up. But there’s some homework that has to be done. Yeah.

Susan LaMotte, Exaqueo 11:30
Yeah, I think there’s quite a bit of homework. And we often will have clients will come to us and say, how do we get started, a lot of it is understanding where your leaders are, if you have leaders who are less sophisticated, and their idea of an EVP is creative, and that’s all it is. Or they think an EVP is what they want the experience to be No, not what it actually is, then you’ve got some work to do. Because otherwise, you’re going to rush through something, you’re going to go to market, and it’s going to be a flash in the pan, as opposed to real strategy that’s actually going to change the business. And that’s what we all want, right from our careers. Shannon, I our whole team has been in house, that’s our goal is to help our clients have that same perspective of don’t just check the box and do another project here, you’re actually doing transformative work that can change the business. And then as a corollary, you know, change your own career, too.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 12:20
So Have either of you and Shannon, I’ll lob it to you, have either of you ever seen even before you were on the consulting side, Shannon, but Have either of you ever seen something where an organization asked for a refresh or ask for a delivery? And as you were uncovering right, you’re doing your initial research, have you seen where the data is coming in and doesn’t align necessarily with the vision, or that push that that the client wanted, or that the organizational leaders wanted? Like they’ve got a vision of their employer brand, or their messaging that maybe doesn’t align with what’s happening in the organization? You don’t have to out anybody?

Shannon Smedstad, Exaqueo 13:05
So, yes, and I would say that, in our, when we’re doing research, we do a lot of candidate and employee research. And so one of I would say, one of the top five reasons many people often choose an organization to work at is for career potential. So and that’s something we see a lot of companies selling, come here, grow your career, right. But then when you actually start to pull back the layers, and have those conversations with employees, you might actually find that for some places or some pockets, that might be true. But for other pockets, there might be obstacles in the way. So I’m thinking about a recent engagement that we were in really unpacking and understanding at a very deep level globally, the employee experience. And what we uncovered is that new hires, were picking this organization because of the career potential. But then when they got in, they didn’t know how to actually navigate that. And so it became this, you can have it because we heard from tenured employees. Absolutely. You can grow your career, but there was sort of this like that with the new hires of like, I don’t know how to can someone point me in the right direction. And so part of that solution or recommendation at the back end of the work is, well, how do we create a new hire toolkit? What is the what do we want people to know? What do we want them to feel? What do we want them to do as a new hire so that they can realize their potential and realize that career growth? So I think it can manifest itself in different ways. And sometimes it’s true for some pockets of populations and not for others. And then the organization or as people leaders, we have to say, Okay, if this is not happening, if this is how we want to show up, and this is the promise we want to make to our people, then we have to remove those obstacles. So it’s true

Chris Hoyt, CXR 14:59
Yeah, and I, you know, so I’ll piggyback on that. And I’ll take a bullet of my own. So when I was a practicing employment brand leader, I did exactly that Shannon. So one of the one of the hardest lessons I ever learned was, I forgot the internal candidate. So if you’re pitching this, you know, this wonderful story about how, how fantastic it is in this organization, come join us. Right, and the possibilities will be unlimited. And then when people get in, and they’re like, I’m really not seeing all of these things that you’re talking about. I’m in and now I’m kind of feeling I imagine I’m feeling kind of stuck. And that was a, that was a hard lesson for me to learn and to hear you say that. Also, I imagine it is still pretty prevalent in the space. It’s just, it’s such an easy thing to miss in that spot. Yeah

Susan LaMotte, Exaqueo 15:48
I think you when we talk about like people experience and the whole point of people experience, it’s why there’s so much confusion in our space, right? I see Carrie Noonan is listening in. So she’ll smile when I say this. Because she’s been doing this as long as Shannon and I have the there’s this confusion, that recruitment, marketing and employer brand are the same thing. And they’re not right. Recruitment marketing is that campaign, it’s that act of marketing to candidates, and attracting new, you know, new faces, new talent, etc. employ your brand is branding and marketing the entirety of the employment experience. So that’s where as employer brand leaders, we’re the future has to be it has to be focused on the whole experience. Because ultimately, right, you want to cycle talent through. And then if people do leave, that’s okay. But when they leave, you want them to be talking about the experience that they had, and you want that to be consistent. The biggest area, we also see, I think, a miss there is diversity, right? It’s showcasing how diverse you are as an organization, and then someone gets in, and then their team, there’s no diversity at all, or in their department, or they don’t see any diversity at the C suite. And so part of it is just being authentic. It’s not saying that you can only focus on where you are now, but at least tell the journey of where you’re headed. And be honest about that journey. Right? So if you’re on a journey of change, be honest about that and say, Hey, come be a part of the change, rather than come join our super diverse company, and then you get there. And it’s not diverse at all right? That’s all part of having an honest experience.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 17:21
So why do you think so we’ve all three of us have been practitioners. Right? So and for a number of years. So why do you think we and our colleagues, why do you think we forget the internal, or we prioritize the external? Or why is it so much easier? Do you think I’d love to hear your opinions on this on why we can get millions of dollars to launch an external piece? And and internally, that employee experience, we kind of get what’s out of the box, right? We don’t really get a big budget for that piece is it and I’m going to take the lazy route is it is it just because it’s sexier to build something brand new externally that everybody’s going to see, I mean, I feel like we kind of the employees get relegated to just whatever’s right out of the box when we plug in.

Susan LaMotte, Exaqueo 18:04
I mean, I think from where I sit, the problem is internal, it’s functional. When employer brand sits at a really low level, at a manager level and reports into seven layers of TA, then that’s going to be their remit. And that’s where they’re going to focus. And your HR leaders don’t see the strategic value of branding and marketing, the employment experience, like a CMO sees the value of branding and marketing the entire customer experience. So I look at the functional side of it. Shannon, what do you think?

Shannon Smedstad, Exaqueo 18:35
Yeah, I’m just, I’m picturing this work that we recently did for a client where we were sharing back all of the insights. And when we’re doing our insights to build an employer brand, we share the attractors, things that reasons people come and they stay the realities of what it’s like to work there. And then also, obstacles or detractors reasons people might leave. And then we share kind of a view of your the things to amplify in order to bring in talent that are the the balance between your attractors and your realities. But then there’s this address column of like, here are the things internally that are getting in the way. And I think it’s just harder. I think it’s harder for leaders to get their leadership teams to agree to wanting to make change. And it’s a real hard look in the mirror of like, here’s what our people are saying, if you’re, if a leader is open enough to really hear what people are saying, or people are saying and you listen, I think that is a step in the right direction. And that’s a huge obstacle for a lot of companies overcome. It’s just being willing and vulnerable to hearing it. But then when you have that in front of you, I think it’s maybe it’s easier to say let’s talk about and sell the good stuff externally and just get more new people in and it’s just harder to do that information. And internally,

Chris Hoyt, CXR 20:00
I think you’re spot on. And I also think it’s, it’s a lot easier for me to tell you why I’ll make a great partner than it is for me to tell you what you may struggle with about me. And I wonder if you’re if you’re still if you got a live chat with the interviewer let tell us if your company’s marketing any of the words is, is your company embracing some of the tough things at your organization that can help you attract the right candidates? And I’ll just I’ll just double down on that for for two seconds. If a 40 hour workweek is rare at your organization, are you embracing telling the front of the front folks right, the candidates are you embracing telling them that we’d like to tell you you’re going to work 40 hours a week. 50 is kind of the norm around here. Like we go all in we also we play hard, but rest assured we work hard to write you can balance that message. But is your organization doubling down on what what might actually push out a few candidate push away a few candidates? Are you, Susan, I’ll lob it back over to you seeing organizations do more of this? Because that I know that was almost unheard of 510 years ago? You don’t you wouldn’t talk?

Susan LaMotte, Exaqueo 21:03
Yeah, we’re starting. It’s so true. We’re starting to see it. And we’re starting to see leaders see the value. They’re just scared. They’re scared to be honest, right? It’s like the first date, you’re not going to go on the first date and tell you know somebody, you just met something terrible about yourself. But it’s better to allow people to self select out early on, because then you don’t waste any of that money in the journey itself. Right. Two examples I’ll share one is we’re working with a tech client right now, who is growing, private equity owned and one of their biggest challenges, they’re going through an incredible amount of change. So as we’re working with them to build out their culture and their employer brand, the biggest, the biggest thing we’re talking about is how do you embrace that change? Because you need people who thrive on change right now, you might not need it forever. But right now, that’s what you need. Another I think more tactical example is we did work with a frozen food manufacturer. And I live in Charleston, South Carolina, I hate cold weather. That’s why I live here most of the year. But so I could never work for frozen food manufacturer, the plant is 32 degrees. So in the job descriptions, we made really simple guidance, like lead with that, right? Don’t bury the lead. Because if you have people that hate that, or maybe they have a medical issue, right, of which they can’t be in the cold all day long lead with that. So right away people know, oh, I know you make frozen food. And I never really thought that actually, the factory’s gonna be cold, too. So these simple changes really help and you can joke about it, you can laugh about it, as long as it aligns with your brand and with your brand standards.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 22:39
It’s a good call. I’ll throw it up on the screen again, Benjamin McCall. Thanks for Thanks for the chat. He says most orgs market ideals and ignore the potholes. Right. I think that’s spot on.

Susan LaMotte, Exaqueo 22:51
usanFor sure.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 22:52
Yeah, it’s good stuff. Well, Shannon, anything you’d add to that?

Shannon Smedstad, Exaqueo 22:57
Well, I think sometimes too, it gets one message gets watered down. So when we start to uncover what really makes your organization unique, and what makes you what makes a Trader Joe’s different than an Aldi, which is different than Whole Foods, which is different than a Wegmans, right? They’re all grocery stores, they all kind of come to the grocery store platform with the same sort of offerings, but they found their way to differentiate. So organizations to have that ability to come in and share what’s different. Then when we start to build out the messaging and the marketing platform, a lot of voices start to come into play, too. And this is what I think this is what I think and then sometimes a challenge can be not only marketing the ideals, ignoring the polls, but then we’re also watering down what we heard or we uncovered is truly unique and special.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 23:57
Yeah, well, I love that I think I love the grocery store analogy piece. I know you can slice that 10 different ways, but I think I think you’re spot on. So so I’m gonna ask you both, you can do this one together. Normally, at the end of each show, we sort of wrap up and we ask everybody if they were going to write a book about the state of things, what would the title of that book you can co author it or you can write it yourself. But this concept of marketing, the genuine employee experience, which I just adore, and I think that is the right direction to go in. And it is it’s it’s a it’s, it’s all it’s so easy to say, but there’s just a tremendous amount of work that’s behind it. And it’s more than just slapping a budget and finding some partners. It really is about digging in and take some time. So if you’re gonna write a book about this spate of marketing the policeman if you can write a book, what would you what would you title that book?

Susan LaMotte, Exaqueo 24:51
I will take a stab first Shannon because I think this will make you laugh. I just finished reading the biography of Michael. Sorry, Matthew Perry. Have you played Chandler being on friends now. And the title of his biography is friends, lovers and the big terrible thing. It’s an amazing book. He has battled addiction for years. It’s an awful disease. I encourage everybody to go read it, bought it at my local Costco speaking of grocery and different grocery experience. But I think it like aptly describes what we’re talking about, right? It’s like, you know, yes, you you want to work somewhere that you’ve got a lot of friends, yes, you want to love your job. But like, Don’t bury the lede be super honest about whatever the messiness is your organization is going through, because everybody’s going through something, right? How many transformations, how many changes, how many bankruptcies, how many, whatever, own it be honest, and invite people to be part of your story, instead of trying to like bury it or hide it, for sure. Shannon, I don’t know if you use the same title.

Shannon Smedstad, Exaqueo 25:54
So the sign here behind me says work hard and be nice to people. And then one of my mantras for work and how I like to approach work is be hard on the work good to the people. And I think if you’re in a transformation, if things are changing, if you’re doing really difficult things, if you’re, if you’re an organization that is carrying carrying diseases, you’re helping people you’re putting, I don’t know, like the just think of all the different industries and like the big, big work that organizations are doing, that’s gonna be challenging, you’re going to want to be hard on the work because we have to deliver for the greater good in many instances. But we want to be good to the people along the way, the people that are with us today that chose us already and the people that we want to come join us,

Chris Hoyt, CXR 26:41
Shannon, I hope you’ve locked that in that might be one of the best titles we’ve been to where we’re on episode 360 Something another. And that might be one of the best titles, Be Hard on the Work Be Good to the People. Like that’s some that’s some a keynote speaker, can you do the whole keynote right around that piece right there. That’d be amazing. But So Shannon, with your epic book title, who are you going to give the first sign Copy To?

Shannon Smedstad, Exaqueo 27:08
Probably my kids love the next generation, like that’s the next generation of our workforce. And as a working mom, I feel like my goal as a working mom is to raise good humans that are going to be productive in society. And so yeah, I think I like give it to my girls.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 27:28
I love that. It’s beautiful. Susan, how about you? What about your book?

Susan LaMotte, Exaqueo 27:31
I’m just gonna sit at the book signing and wait for Matthew Perry to show up. And when he does, that will give him my first sign copy.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 27:38
You know, you just have 10 more questions about Valerie Bertinelli, that is the real.

Susan LaMotte, Exaqueo 27:44
That book is full of fun facts. His you know, his mom was the former chief of staff for Pierre Trudeau, the former Prime Minister of Canada.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 27:53
Crazy. Yeah. Is it is it is kind of interesting. Plus, you know, he kind of stopped on Keanu Reeves. So he lost some points with me, but that’s okay. He made it right. I didn’t take it.

Susan LaMotte, Exaqueo 28:01
I didn’t take it that way. We can save that debate for the next time.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 28:04
I have not read the book. Full disclosure. Sorry, Matthew, I know you’re listening. Good stuff. All right. Well, I want to thank you both so much. I’m a big fan of just both of you have known of and you directly for years and years and years, and you’re doing just fantastic work. We’re hearing good things coming out of folks who are touching the Exaqueo work and how you’re sort of really, really leaning in. So thank you so much. I know you’re super busy. But we’re so grateful for your time today and for joining us. Appreciate it.

Susan LaMotte, Exaqueo 28:30
Thanks. Thanks, Chris.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 28:31
All right, really quickly before we let everybody gonna put you to in the greenroom. Don’t go away, hanging out in there really quickly. I just want to remind some folks, as I did mention Gerry’s at Empower HR, where he is in Phoenix, rockin some, some sessions and of course, some roundtable. So it’s awfully exciting. We’re excited to be part of that with the hr.com crew. We got a couple of things coming up for you. If you are a member, we have a CXR lecture. It’s called Closing the Gender Gap in Tech. We’re bringing back Antonia Forster one of my favorite speakers for these we do these monthly lectures. If you’ve not seen them, we bring them in from around the world and this individual crushes it. So highly recommend check that out. It’s gonna be May 18. It is right around the corner. We’ve got our in person talent operations meeting that’s coming up the 22nd to 24th. It might be too late to register but hit us up if you want to. We might be able to make it happen but we’re getting pretty close to the dates. I think the hotel rooms and all that good stuff are booked up. And then we’ve got a couple of things in June that around the corner. So check it out. You can see all this stuff that’s out there at cxr.works/events where you can find all that information and we’re gonna see you next week we do this weekly. We hope you’ll join us don’t forget CXR.works/podcast thanks for jumping in everybody.

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