E369 Recruiting Community: Johnny Campbell, Shiny Baubles and Pay Transparency

Johnny Campbell, founder of Social Talent, joins Chris Hoyt (he/him) and Gerry Crispin to talk about more automation, ChatGPT, and technology options within TA along with the history of recruiting (all the way back to the 1800's) and the increasing pressure of corporations to get on board with pending pay transparency regulations coming out of the EU to US markets.

E369 Recruiting Community: Johnny Campbell, Shiny Baubles and Pay Transparency

Johnny Campbell, founder of Social Talent, joins Chris Hoyt (he/him) and Gerry Crispin to talk about more automation, ChatGPT, and technology options within TA along with the history of recruiting (all the way back to the 1800's) and the increasing pressure of corporations to get on board with pending pay transparency regulations coming out of the EU to US markets.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 
So Johnny, you just, obviously you’re you’re in Ireland. And you just I think you said you just booked your flight.

Johnny Campbell, Social Talent 0:10
I just booked my flight for Davidson, North Carolina. I’m looking forward to CXR operations committee meeting. I find a direct flight from Dublin. Who would have thought there’s a direct flight from Dublin to Charlotte. Like there is

Chris Hoyt, CXR 0:26
I find, I’m not totally sure I got a direct flight out to Austin. Yeah, there is.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 0:32
A lot of Irish people in Charlotte. Maybe that’s it? Yeah,

Johnny Campbell, Social Talent 0:37
we just need to get around. That’s probably you know, when you live in a damp islands that’s kind of cold and miserable all year round. You will create roots anywhere in the world. I trust. You will get the hell out that that is our survival instinct, Gerry.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 0:52
I mean, it’s great. Oh, my gosh. Well, there’s

Chris Hoyt, CXR 0:55
a lot of travel coming up. I think around the corner, right. We’ve got right around the corner. We’ve got unleashed in a couple of weeks. It feels like it’s next week. I keep having a minor panic attack of like, is my room booked? is most of my stuff. Ready? Is my panel prepared? Is what you know that. That anxiety I haven’t had for a conference in three years. Maybe.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 1:16
It’s gonna be fun.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 1:17
Yeah, it will be fun. Mark does a great job with that. I love the man.

Johnny Campbell, Social Talent 1:21
He does a great job. Yeah. Oh, this is great. You know, it’s Vegas, people like go to Vegas, right. And you get good speakers like I go to the content as much as the networking. When it comes to leash. We did Unleash in Paris. Only last October last fall. It was October time. And it’s brilliant. Like there is fantastic speakers they had to Erin Meyer was on stage again. She was the first time in three or four years talking about her new book that she wrote with Reed Hastings, which was really awesome. Because no rules rules. She was a standout kind of keynote for me. But like it was packed with good content for two days, You know.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 2:01
He breaks it up nicely.

Johnny Campbell, Social Talent 2:04
Yeah, he does.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 2:04
He really does. It is probably rapidly becoming my preferred, like if I have to rank them. Right. And I’m not I’m not adding anybody when I wouldn’t go to anymore, that kind of thing. So it’s not as severe Who’s In Who’s Out ranking. But like I would put the work that mark in that team does really right up there at the top from a content from an experience standpoint. I love the startup work that they do in the show. Gerry, you’re helping I think this year judge the finalists?

Gerry Crispin, CXR 2:30
Yeah, yeah. And it’s a very interesting group as well. It’s a very interesting group of judges, too. But, but other than that, we’re good.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 2:40
All right. Well, we do have a couple of things we want to talk about. Some work you guys have done. I think Johnny, you got some new stuff going on over there. So are you guys ready to jump in? Sure. Okay, here we go.

CXR Announcer 2:52
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Chris Hoyt, CXR 3:21
Okay, it’s good to be back on the air. We are well, we are recording. But we are streaming as well, we’re gonna we’re gonna push this out. It goes obviously to all the channels, where we typically stream you’ll see this live on LinkedIn, on Twitter on YouTube, of course, CXR.works/podcast where you can listen to this one, obviously, and subscribe so that you can know what’s coming up in advance. We’ve got all the next stuff coming up. I want to remind everybody, as well that we’ve got a lot of stuff going on, we’re getting back, as you heard, sort of as we were jumping in the line, we’ve got a lot of stuff coming up up front. So if you’ll check out CXR.works/events, and that is where we are actually sharing activities, events, conferences, that sort of thing. Where Gerry and I will be. And then, of course, where some of our members will be as well, we were talking about unleash, which is just around the corner. And of course, we mentioned we’ve got a CXR meeting coming up for operations where we’re going to be a Trane Technologies, and we’re pretty excited about that. I’ll go ahead and welcome Gerry in from the green room. Mr. Crispin, how are you today?

Gerry Crispin, CXR 4:20
Wonderful. And you know, I don’t know if we have an events. Our trip that Barb and I are going on to Israel?

Chris Hoyt, CXR 4:27
We don’t I don’t think it’s actually on the calendar. The trip. Yeah, there’s a lot going on in Israel. It makes me nervous every time you turn to go, but that’s fine.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 4:34
I’m getting calls from folks going. Have you been watching the news lately? You know, and I’m going, you know, there’s something going on in that part of the world all the time. Yes. That’s fine.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 4:46
You survived Burning Man three times. You can get in and out of Tel Aviv.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 4:50
I think I can do it. It’d be fun.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 4:53
But let’s welcome in our guest today. Back to the show. Mr. Campbell. How are you?

Johnny Campbell, Social Talent 4:57
Gentlemen good to be here. It’s funny, Gerry you talked about Tel Aviv I remember I was over there a few years ago with our friend Kat Blair when he was heading up Cisco’s ta team. And I was nervous. I was like, oh gosh, 10 of E. coli into Israel. It’s gonna be like, and I came back, I just joyously shared my wife, right, this new Mediterranean resort I discovered. You know, it’s like, oh, it’s like, not like, oh, it’s really beautiful with gorgeous restaurants, great people. You’re on demand. It’s fantastic. The weather’s great. Everyone’s sustainable until you go to the airport to go home, of course. But you know, I just thought it was fabulous. And it reminded me when I was a kid growing up in Ireland, and people talk about, you know, what’s it like they’re like, What do you mean? It’s like, what were the bombs and stuff were like, oh, no, that’s like that’s that’s over there. And that part, and It just happens like what’s what’s the problem?

Gerry Crispin, CXR 5:46
The corner?

Johnny Campbell, Social Talent 5:48
That’s an hour away. What are you talking about?

Chris Hoyt, CXR 5:52
Your’re reminding me Johnny of the. I know it was Scott Smith. But you reminded me of the routine that Robin Williams did when you’re like, oh, no, it’s way over there. It’s like, oh, a little flag to give him hope.

Johnny Campbell, Social Talent 6:07
Oh, yes, like the Irishman with the Scottish accent. Australia dedicata leprechaun costume they are brought on Chris.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 6:18
So for those maybe God who don’t know you, why don’t you give us sort of an escalator pitch like, give us a quick rundown on who you are, and why we should be interested in what you have to say today.

Johnny Campbell, Social Talent 6:28
I want to know why it’s an escalator, no elevator pitch. But so who am I a former recruiter, father of four boys, wife Jill, live in Ireland used to work in the Caribbean and recruiting set up a recruiting staffing agency. 15 years ago, pivoted that into a training business, which became social times, which became the world’s largest online platform for talent, skills. And that’s what we do today. We work with big organizations around the world and small ones, to teach their teams how to hire talents, how to lead talent, how to engage talent, and we’ve got hundreds of hours of courses and content that we push that every week, and we educate the world on what the future talent looks like.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 7:12
I will say hands down. We have two solutions providers that our members consistently talk just glowingly about. And Johnny, the Social Talent crew. And the work that you guys do within that learning platform is is one of them, like consistently, we’ve never heard a disparaging word. I mean, it’s it has always come back that oh my gosh, we use that we love it. We’ve seen Jerry’s content in there, John blesta, licos got some content, like we just love what’s going on in there. And I think you guys are just crushing it.

Johnny Campbell, Social Talent 7:46
Thank you. And it’s the people in the platform, right? I used to be a presenter, I’m gonna present ready more on the platform. Because there’s better people than me out there who do better work teaching on a wider range of topics. So yeah, it’s a, it’s exciting to but 100 people who deliver content on the platform today, and they’re brilliant. And I watch my social done training. Every week I I was doing training on how to be a better leader. I’m only at lunchtime my time this afternoon, I got my 30 minutes training. And so it’s nice to actually be a user of the platform because it’s not looking at me. It’s new people who have new ideas to teach me stuff. It’s great to play.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 8:23
Well, that’s fun. I love that. I got to ask, I saw Jerry’s face. So geria mind reading. So you tell me if I’m off? Has there been any thought around the impact or speculation around the impact all of this chat GPT and Bard technology for your platform? Specifically? I mean, I trust you’re not going to launch anything this is now with GPT baked in. But there’s got to be some sort of even answer or at least some sort of impact or disrupter aspect to that. Yeah.

Johnny Campbell, Social Talent 8:51
So it’s funny, I kind of go back seven or eight years, when someone in our engineering team said we need to find a use for AI. I was like, what was it we put on our website to find the use for put AI into the into the box, I was like, Okay, let’s go find a use for it. I learned then is what I still apply today is you don’t go find a use for chat GPT. And people have said, Listen, you need to put it in our systems. Now. It’s like, you got to find problems that your customers have, and you got to find solutions. And if this happens to be a really good solution to a genuine problem, go for it, you know, absolutely don’t go trying to find a problem. For this solution. It’s just the wrong way around. So I think it will change learning, right? HR is one of the area’s that’s going to be changed the first with this technology, right? There’s a load of admin that thinks will take office. In learning one of the areas that’s been touted as being the kind of future is that we don’t need presenters anymore, right? Because you can connect it all up and you can have what you need to present for 60 seconds. So we just captured Jerry for 60 seconds saying a few words. And then we can make any course in the world with Gerry right? You know, I think you’re gonna see half the work I was training in three years will look like that, right? But you could do that with a movie, I don’t think you’re gonna see half the movies in the cinema. And the theaters like that, you’re gonna see really high quality people, but you’re gonna see, I think, a bigger difference in quality. Because the moment a lot of the stuff that people do on pay actors and professionals are paid to do and training is crap. And we just as good having ai do it, right, are chat GPT produce it. So what it means is that if all that coverage crap gets replaced by automated people, which I think it will, it means the stuff that’s not automated needs to be that much better. So to me, that’s what excites me, it’s like, this means that the premium stuff has got to be so good. That’s what I look at, I go, Ah, I need to make sure that we’re at the very, very best, because if you’re not using an automated speaker, she or he or they need to be fantastic.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 10:53
So I just had a really similar discussion with somebody the other day where I would agree with you completely, I think it’s not AI versus people, it’s people versus people. And it’s weird, like, some people are going to elevate their game, and others are just gonna get lazy and are going to find it find it to be more of a challenge.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 11:09
You know, what I thought of when, when you were talking? Johnny is I have a cousin who’s a real quality musician. But a couple of years ago, he bought a product so that when he speaks into the microphone, it adjusts his tone quality of voice, with the auto tune to two different kinds of modalities that just improve what he can offer. So he can he can fake Elvis Presley a little bit differently than he would have had, he played an Elvis Presley’s tune prior to that. And I’m thinking and so when you were talking about that improvement in quality, yeah, you have to have the knowledge and the skill to begin with. But once you you are applying those tools, you can you know, kind of upskill the the whole approach I insurance the result? i That’s interesting.

Johnny Campbell, Social Talent 12:10
I love that knowledge, right? Could you imagine Leonard Cohen using auto chair, right? It’s been around with us today, right? But just just know, because it’s the distinctiveness that makes makes him fantastic. Right? I remember I was watching edge from you to the edges talking about technology, its usage, right. And he was saying how he basically every day you’d have a new guitar riff and have your chords in samples, puts it into his laptop. And then he goes back to this vast database of samples, and he puts them together. And a tune would come out of that. And then he play it straight through in real time and record that. And you see how someone gets augmented with technology, rather than trying to remember all the tunes back in the 80s 90s that remembers choose what was that shoe in the hotel room 16 weeks ago, he can just go to his laptop, and there it is that you know, three second riff or whatever. So I think it’s the augmentation, how you then become better because you’re, you’re outsourcing things like memory. So it’s hard.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 13:04
But here’s, here’s what I would like, if if somebody is covering Leonard Cohen, if somebody is covering someone else, because they have the tools to say I do it this way, then Leonard should get a penny or two for the use of hit of, of covering with him, if you will. And that could that could change the game from from an income point of view for some of those folks too

Johnny Campbell, Social Talent 13:34
Well, I just watched Ben Aflack Air movie last night. It’s awesome. Right? Really loved it hadn’t realized how to your point, Jerry that that contract that Nike signed with Michael Jordan was the first that gave the athletes the cut of the revenue, and it’d be gone. And Sony, that guy that Matt Damon portrays became somebody who was highly influential in in facilitating and won a massive court Supreme Court case in the US that allowed kids to to get access to income and created billions of dollars of wealth wealth for the athletes that they never would have had that the corporates would have maintained. So you look at that kind of redistribution. That’s a lot of folks. They talk about Web 3.0. What is web 3.0? A lot of it’s about where the money moves, you know, web 2.0 Always social networks. I saying web 3.0 is more, but it’s going to the creators. It’s following that trend sports in the 80s and 90s. The Internet now in the 20s and 30s. Maybe it’s just about just where the wealth goes.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 14:40
Yeah, there’s an interest. So when you started talking about the GPT, when you started responding that question, John, you said something that sort of struck a nerve with me and that was go find a way to use this. And we had a discussion the other day with a few leaders who were talking about technology and wanting to jump on technology. See before they’ve even got a challenge for it, or leaders who shop for tech that’s supposed to answer challenges or problems they don’t even know that they have yet. So it’s it is kind of an interesting shot, like chasing that shiny bobble challenge that spans across all the industries. But I think I think to your point, like there are opportunities that will present themselves, the more we sort of adopt, or the more that we use this.

Johnny Campbell, Social Talent 15:25
I remember a TA leader, I won’t name him that I respect massively. He got a great job working for a kind of moonshot arm of a big telco. And he was telling me about his job if they four or five years ago when he joined, are you saying that, you know, they got promoted and bonused, on the amount of experiments they ran? And not the amount of outcomes or successes, it was like, you know, it wasn’t didn’t do my review had, you know, 20 faders was like you tried 20 times. So that was the main thing. They just did this. And they were really proud of this. As we’re all the x and moonshot arms of most the tech companies. We’re all about this. And you can look back now, they’ve all been shut down. But that approach is doing for 2023. That doesn’t work. And it reminded me, I listened to a podcast about founder of a business was talking about in the early 1990 days and into the early 90s, when he founded his business, it was all about views, you know, the the.com bubble that we all went through in 20, in 2000, right. And that was all about view. So all the different pages like is there was no no revenue, right? It was just views, your worth that if you had views, right, he he sold his business for 200 million. And they had at that time got $35,000 of revenue and total ever. Right. But they have views and they sell it for 200 million, right? And this was back in 1999. And we went from like views to you know, fastboot, like three, four years ago, it was all about revenue growth, right multiples or revenues by who got the biggest revenue growth. And then we finally arrived at profit. We’ve gone for in 25 years, we’ve gone from views being the big thing to no revenues, the big thing to finally know, actually, it’s profit. And I look at those kind of things. And you talk about tech is like, oh, it’s about using tech is about using AI. It all eventually gets to What’s the fucking purpose, right? What’s the purpose? Sorry for cursing. You know what the purpose of all these companies views have to convert to revenue, it has to convert to profit, Tech has to convert to solving a problem that actually somebody has that’s worth solving. And using for the sake of it. I never subscribed to that never subscribed.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 17:31
Yeah, I mean, it reminds me as to things that reminds me of a conversation that we were part of where we had we had a vendor that was talking to a TA leader, and just continuing to sort of talk about what they offered and how they could help. And the TA leader said Yeah, but I don’t have those problems. Like I love your product. But those aren’t my problems. Those are those might be her problems or his problems. But those aren’t mine. So this doesn’t really work for me.

Johnny Campbell, Social Talent 17:57
I still talk like, don’t get me wrong, you might have come across a social town salesperson who made this mistake, right? I talked to some of our to our team about, you know, you’re a kid, you’re a pharmacy, and you’re going and go, Hey, Gerry. So we’ve got you know, we got stuff to solve the headaches, we’ve got some stuff for, you know, for infections, for you know, for bruises, you’re kind of go again, it’s great. I’ve none of these things, you know, and adopted doesn’t do that doctor will physician will say, How are you feeling what’s wrong, and then you’ll eventually get to the one thing that they sell that you need, that’s critical, because that’s the thing you’ve painted. And discovery is really, really important. This breathing, you know, I used to, I used to meet folks in our space, technology vendors, and they’d have solutions. Like you remember, there’s loads of stuff going on the in the early 10s that we’re aware and discovery of candidates and social media. And a lot of the tools are built by software engineers, no disrespect have never worked in our industry, who never worked as a practitioner, and had never worked with us. They just knew how to build code. You’re like, I can build the best, you know, marketplace for whatever, like great, but you have any talents there? No. Do you have any buyers there know? What the hell’s the point and you know, the pain. And the best solutions come from pain. Someone who’s experienced like when we when we set up social talent, right? I started teaching people how to use social media, not because I wanted to make money because I was a recruiter who was trying to get a fee in the world’s worst recession we’ve ever seen. So I was like, does this work to get me candidates better than everybody else? And only because I found a way to make it work and then to people that did it work? I wasn’t just trying to you know, find something to flog. It was like I had a real pain. I need talent for weird rolls around the world because only weird roles got you a feedback in Oh 809 And therefore, these new tools helped me do that and people went how show me how to do that. Right. So from real, genuine Pain, you actually develop great solutions. So yeah, mary that pain the solution is pain.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 20:05
So pain is the mother of solutions like the the mother. Yeah, it’s like that. So outside of us predicting the future you’re gonna love the segue. This is why 360 episodes gets you these masterclass segues outside of trying to predict the future. We’ve done a little bit of work on the past. So, yeah, so Gerry, you were one of the editors for this huge project. This was a huge project, this was months of work. This is countless hours of research. So I want to let you sort of set the stage for what is the what is the history of recruiting?

Gerry Crispin, CXR 20:43
Well, you know, it really I have to give credit to Adela Schoolman, because she was the one who called me and said, Look, I’ve been a recruiter now for X number of years, I love what I’m doing. And I keep asking myself, where did we come from. And, and, and that sparked a whole host of things. And she had been looking at some of the work that Jim Stroud had done, and a few others in trying to put pieces of this together. And together, I’m looking at going, you know, I’m old enough that I’ve lived through most of the history of recruiting myself, so. So I’m kind of surprised when we look at it. And then we, we basically made a very critical decision, which is to start really around 1900, which, which is approximately the second industrial revolution, because that when was when there was significant movement, towards larger scaling, how we work together. And in addition to that, there was an intense focus on management in that in that early stage. So it was primitive, but still, you’re looking at how do we how do we orchestrate? How do we organize, you know, what is industrial, organizational approaches to how we do these things. And recruiting is a piece of that, before that, it was pretty ugly, how we hired and I didn’t want to get into all of the issues about how we sold our children to two minds, you know, so that, that we could make a make a little bit of a living. So I think I wanted to start really, at a point in which we were really starting to become a modern approach to technology. And so we’ve got about 250 300, little milestones. And each one should be a story. And so what I challenged the 40 or 50, contributing authors was to tell me a bit of that story. If you experienced it, personally, I’ll, I’ll accept what you state. But if you didn’t accept it, personally, I want to see some linkages to legitimate support network what that milestone is about and I got a great response from, you know, I guess it was about 46, that we, we had I’ve added in since we announced by the way, I’ve had three or four, give me some additional ones. So So over over the weekends, I’m going to spend a little time adding those to the, to the history because I want to see this as something that continues to grow. Because there’s some big flaws in it, you know, we don’t have enough from Europe, for example, I don’t know where Ireland starts with all of this. And I I’m almost afraid of what they might have been selling, or recruiting doing and recruiting in 1900. But that’s another issue. But you know, we could we should be adding is this from a global point of view. And I’d love to be able to be able to filter by by country or by region or those kinds of things so people could look at it. And last point because I think this is my very passionate about this subject. I believe when you start immersing yourself in the body of knowledge of where we come from, you realize that the story is about our ability to expand the pools of talent to become more diverse and inclusive, that that fundamentally on a global basis. We have restricted work over centuries, if you will, to to a much more privileged group. And that the the real story about recruiting is the how we’ve opened up, if you will, our ability to hire everyone, based on their ability and skill, knowledge and experience to do the work. We still are on that journey. Clearly, it’s not an easy one to get over. But the fact of the matter is that that it really pops out when you start looking at a lot of these milestones.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 25:26
Yeah, I’ll throw I’ll throw this into for those who are listening and not watching. The URL is easy to get to it. It’s it’s www dot CXR dot foundation that is a domain CXR.foundation/history. It’s pretty straightforward. Johnny, you were also part of contributing to some of the content here. Yeah.

Johnny Campbell, Social Talent 25:45
Yeah, that’s a great point, going back through my laptop, my old files, to find out the different images. And I’m trying to remember some of the different tech. Now I only go back maybe 20 years. And then there’s some just references that I use in presentations before the I flown to Gerry, that were maybe a little bit older than that. But yeah, it’s, I guess, really important to understand the history of something. Because there’s a huge amount of learning, right, we tend to make the same mistakes over and over and over and over again. And you don’t need to if you just understand the history, you can understand the mistake that someone else made before you probably several generations ago, several times, over and over again. And you see cycles of human patterns and behaviors, right? And we’re in the business of people. So to understand the behavior over even a small period, like 120 years, it’s a small period, right? It’s important to understand a lot of the basic principles like, you know, the obvious things on the history of recruiting we see or, you know, the earliest job advertisements, they fundamentally look the same as they do today. They appeal to the same emotive purpose statements that people are trying to train people on in 2023. You know, we’re still doing it, because still works, right? Because we haven’t changed that much as humans

Chris Hoyt, CXR 27:00
Just love me just work here. I mean, that’s, that’s, that’s the whole spirit, they

Gerry Crispin, CXR 27:05
actually called in the 90s, up to the 1940s. They call the the job ads in newspapers, tombstones, just so you know. Why? I don’t know. But they look like tombstones because they had they, they were just text with no, no embellishment whatsoever. It wasn’t until the 1950s, that they started examining ways to use different fonts, different kinds of approaches, and kind of kind of marketing those those job ads. But you know, and that lasted up until the obviously late 90s, until the internet took over.

Johnny Campbell, Social Talent 27:47
Yeah, it’s probably remember the earliest internet ads, you know, we just took the line of jobs, we put in the newspapers, sure, we just put them on the internet, you know, and you don’t sometimes takes a long time to change your habit, you move it to a new medium, that technologically more innovative medium, but you don’t change fundamentally what you’re doing. And then you get something like, like, like, like this, the pandemic you mentioned, Gerry, the kind of fundamental shift we’ve gone through in the last few years, right? We kind of we had the internet, we had everything else, but we still went to offices worked nine to five, which was a factory oriented construct that was over 100 years old, but we just can’t have copied it, because it’s what we knew, we applied it to teleworking, and then it took the shock to go hang on a second, you don’t need to do that at all. It’s fundamentally different. And we celebrated 50 years. You know, I heard a podcast this morning said that the trajectory would have been 50 more years to get to where we are today, in terms of that, that innovation to get to most companies do two and a half days of work a week, hybrid working on average, and that’s 35% of all jobs in the US today. That’s it’s such a huge fundamental shift from where it was. But you know, that whole idea, you don’t have to be there, you know, to be there at the same time. And you can work on different things, we got this acceleration. And to your point, Jerry, it does open up opportunity. Like when I was my was started in this business. My big hope, silly as it was, was that I wanted a world where anyone could work and compete for any job anywhere in the world, which obviously is impossible because our was impossible because you can’t get work permits. You don’t have the right to me from a privileged economy like Ireland as it is today. You know, why shouldn’t someone from an economy that earns less in a very distant place compete for the same job as me, it would mean I’d probably earn less, but they earn more and it would be more equal. But you know, politics and economics don’t allow for that until the pandemic, when now a company can open up it you know, I I love the example of users so many times a freshie was reported about a year ago in Canada, where they started using call centers in South America and Southeast Asia to To basically serve people in stores, Freshy stores in Quebec, and Montreal, from call centers, and you end up to the candidate to order your salad. And it was someone in a call center that’s distributing the job around the world and giving a quantity to people going to Oh, it’s outsourcing quality Canadian jobs, it was 15 bucks an hour, they couldn’t hire anyone in Canada to do that job. And then you get somebody who can get what’s considered a premium call center job somewhere else, you know, not not a farming job, can they earn, you know, what is in their country great money. That is actually the equalization, you know, to your point, Gerry, it’s, it’s more equitable.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 30:35
So so I’m a little bit more radical than that, I do believe it’s not equalization, because what is a great price in another country, still might be much, much less than the value of that work. And I think that there is a baseline that says the value of this work is x, there may be cost of living differences between different countries, or different regions. But fundamentally, there is a baseline that says this, wherever this is, we should be paying at least this and the test is, if I’m making $15 an hour, doing something that can be remote. And I happen to live in New York, and I decide I want to move to India. But I still can do that job. Should I still get $15 an hour if that’s the value of that job. And the point is, you should not necessarily be then paying me $15 an hour from India, and then paying somebody in India less than that. If in fact, that’s the value. That’s my argument. But I know that right now, most companies, they look for, how do I increase the margin, profit margin, by moving these jobs to different places, but then who gets who gets the money at the end? It’s the gal or guy at the top of the ladder, whose bonus now increases to millions of dollars. So I’m, I’m a little bit more radical in terms of where I think it should go. But I think it’s going to take a few more years to get.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 32:22
I don’t think you’re wrong. I think you’re spot on Gerry. But I think and I would I’d align with that. But what what I think a lot of us have come to realize in the last few years is the nuances of of making that work, right? I mean, they’re it’s complicated, but it’s complicated shouldn’t be the excuse not to do it. It’s just, it’s, it’s more work than just saying, okay,

Gerry Crispin, CXR 32:45
But Johnny a better and not a better, but a thing that’s going as fast as that is pay transparency, for example. So, so fundamentally, while what I’m saying might be a little bit more radical, the point of where we’re going, is radical enough in terms of pay transparency, with the Europeans pay transparency directive, almost ready, I see it just going to a new level in terms of how employers are going to have to explain to their employees and to the candidates, what it is they’re doing in relation to compensation. And, and we’re going to have to upskill on every level, the recruiter, the hiring manager, even the candidates in terms of better understanding how this works together, and how what I’m getting paid is fair. And that’s, that’s, I think, a powerful movement. That’s, that’s been in the works now for almost a decade, but I think has accelerated through the pandemic. And and, and I just think is going to make be a game changer for all of us.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 34:01
I don’t think real traction starts on that, though, until there’s some lawsuits, like until companies get fined, because we’re like we have we have laws that have passed in the States about pay transparency. And we have a still the majority of jobs posted in those states don’t include the pay or those that do often have this radical $400,000 Plus,

Gerry Crispin, CXR 34:24
Of the 49 states that have pay equality, you know, laws, and the many that now have I think about 21 have paid transparency laws. Very few of them have a cost to doing it badly. Now, now you’re starting to see that certainly Europe is ahead of us in relation to that. But now with what New York and especially California have done is they’ve they put some some expenses that employers are going to find themselves having to pay if they if they fail to comply?

Chris Hoyt, CXR 35:05
Well, just until somebody gets, you know, punched in the stomach, I just don’t I don’t see it getting any real, the traction that it deserves,

Gerry Crispin, CXR 35:12
I hear you. I agree.

Johnny Campbell, Social Talent 35:15
I see it like in in Europe, right hiring I hire in Europe, and we pay the same salary, regardless of where you are. And we’ve got folks who’ve moved out of Ireland, we hire in different countries using ers, but we pay the net same amount. So obviously, there’s different tax, you know, the taxation differences in an employer in somewhere like Spain, and Portugal is about 30% Different to artists. So, you know, we got to take that out of the the total amount. So, you know, the person in those countries gets paid by 30% of that less into their hands before they pay their personal tax, because the company has to assume that so those kinds of equalization, things have to happen, right? It’s like, you know, and people forget that stuff is that kind of nitty gritty, and then there’s benefits. You know, if you’re in the Nordics, you have to pay more vacation time or leave, you have to build that into the cost base. So these things, you know, comp, and Ben’s folks have never been in such demand to make sure this all works. But the principle you speak out, Gerry is so right. It’s like this is what we pay for someone to deliver this work. And that’s it. Now, if you’re in a very distant country, and we want you to get with your team, once a quarter, we’re going to build in the flight costs. And again, these things get added up and someone locally wouldn’t have to pay those costs. But like someone in should learn so little, and someone in the Bay Area shouldn’t learn so much. And that is just the reality of the world. But you know, you want to live and pay crazy rents. You know, I saw a tweet. During the week. It was a staff engineer from Mehta who’d been laid off, and was complaining that he couldn’t afford his rent. He bought a home for $1.5 million dollars, and this is mortgage was $8,300 a month. And it’s like,

Chris Hoyt, CXR 36:53
Is it like a zero down,

Johnny Campbell, Social Talent 36:59
Oh, no sympathy, but then folks are kind of chiming in on where he lives in in. In Seattle, that might be a two bed, it might not even be a three bed because the property is so expensive. So like, you know, he would have bought, I assume, you know, bought that house and got that mortgage, naively, perhaps to Junior in Israel. But he would have thought staff engineers don’t get laid off. Right. And companies like Mehta, you’re all good. And, hey, that’s yet to live near the office. So therefore, that’s what it costs, you know, but you could leave get somewhere for a couple 100 bucks. I was in Lisbon last week, right? And you get a gorgeous two bedroom apartment overlooking the water in Lisbon for about 1000 bucks 1200 bucks a month. You know, put you’re gonna earn, you know, you’re gonna get the national average wage is 700 euros a month. So, you know, yeah, I think it’s going to, hopefully help equality. I’m one of many measures to try and get us there Gerry,

Gerry Crispin, CXR 37:53
I think it’s fascinating.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 37:54
Well, look, Johnny, we do this, as we wrap up all of these, we ask all of our guests to give us the title of a book, if they were going to write a book right now about the state of things, or even just their headspace. So if you will put you on the spot and ask you as well, you know, exception to the to the question. So if you’re going to write a book today, what what do you title it?

Johnny Campbell, Social Talent 38:15
All you are put me on the spot there. And I’ll start with the title of a book that I read recently that I love, I’m going to tweet, twist it from my version, that’s a book called this is how they tell me the world ends. It written about two, three years ago, in advance of the Ukraine invasion, about the cyber issues with Russia and China, and wire where was going on particularly focused on Ukraine, and how the world how the US, the China and Russia are fighting this cyber war, and we just don’t even see it, and how it’s been going on for quite some time. And it’s the next theater of war. And we then saw that materialize in Ukraine. It’s fascinating. I’ll never look at your iPhone or your Android device ever again. But I prefer it to title my book to use that kind of intent with the world started. And, you know, to me, that’s the world of work. I see. You know, the pandemic was a reset, I think we’re into a new phase. I mean, it’s a fun we’ve got three of us have been through different changes, right? This is the most fundamental reset I’ve seen in my professional career, which is maybe only 25 years long, right? Or my working career which is 30 something years long. And I just do believe this is one of the biggest resets that we’ll see in our lifetimes. And it’s gonna just continue to filter into different effects for decades to come. And excites me.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 39:41
I love that so who journey Who do you give the first signed copy of that book to and not us?

Johnny Campbell, Social Talent 39:50
My mother of course.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 39:51
There you go.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 39:53

Gerry Crispin, CXR 39:55
Great. And I love I do love the title because it reflects if you will, that when we look at, look at the future that we want to be in, we should be working hard to create the kind of world that we would like to have for ourselves. So I think it’s clear

Chris Hoyt, CXR 40:13
Be the change, you want to be some something along those lines. Yeah, Johnny, thank you so much. We know you’re super busy, we love when you get a chance to jump on here, I’m going to do my best not not to lose this particular podcast. But before we managed to get that up there, I do have full ownership of that we had one expire. So this is the pleasure of

Johnny Campbell, Social Talent 40:33
Even better, even better. Chris Addison, thank you both. I’m looking forward to seeing you both in North Carolina.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 40:39
Pretty soon. Yeah, very, very much. Looking forward to that. So hang out, don’t go anywhere yet. We’re gonna put you in there much gratitude, appreciate you being on. Gerry really quickly, we’ve got a new button on here. So what we didn’t call out. So the history of recruiting was done in large part by CXR Foundation. So not just all the contributors, but also there is a nonprofit that we have founded, that does a lot of that work behind that program. I think recruiters recruiting recruiters Well, actually we had we had a live in person, community and charity activity that was sort of the impetus for the CXR.foundation. But then also, I think, Recruiters Recruiting Recruiters, when we did that years ago, sort of got it online, like picked it up and moved it. And this is one of those efforts,

Gerry Crispin, CXR 41:26
It’s certainly not not an easy task, to take that content and find a way to put it on a platform so that people can engage with it, and that we can change it in an easy way. And, you know, to have to have CXR Foundation be able to invest in being able to do that, because we basically told every one of the contributing recruit contributing authors, the content joueurs, in effect, you’re an author. So take that content, put it wherever you want. The problem with it is it resides then in a PDF file that you can’t do much with so. So yeah, this, this hopefully will help us move it in a variety of different ways.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 42:13
So let’s see, let’s see if we got a new button. Oh, there it goes. It’s in the top, I guess. So you can scan that we’ve given you this fancy button, look at that. So if you’re watching us, there’s a QR code there. The CXR Foundation has a number of committees. So you can participate in that if you’re interested in volunteering, not just for the history of, but we’ve got several things that are going on, we got a mentor program that’s getting ready to launch. I’m super excited about that. That’s been like nine months we’ve been cooking that. So we’re pretty stoked about that and a number of other things. But if you’re interested in donating, you can do that. You can scan this you can go to CXR.Foundation, slash donate it is nonprofit, or you can scan the QR code. And then of course, any any aspect on the site has a whole bunch of request information and contact us links that the team have put up there. I want to encourage anybody that like to just take part not just in the history of but any other programs that we have going on encourage you to lean in it’s it feels good it’s feel good work, I think.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 43:10

Chris Hoyt, CXR 43:11
Yeah, it’s feel good work. All right. With that we’re going to take everybody out we’ll see everybody next week say goodbye Gerry.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 43:17

CXR Announcer 43:20
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