Chris Hoyt, CXR 
All right, so are you. You’re get Joe, you say you’re getting ready to travel. Can you share where you’re going? Is it top secret? Are you on a mission

Joe Shaker Jr., Shaker Recruitment Marketing 0:07
of staying local today, Chris, but I put on a nice suit coat for you and Gerry.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 0:08
That’s, that’s very exciting. That’s well, I just saw Gerry last week we did our live or in person meeting we’re back to in person meetings, which is great. Gerry was all dressed up.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 0:22
Yeah

Joe Shaker Jr., Shaker Recruitment Marketing 0:23
What you don’t realize I have shorts and gym shoes on underneath. So keep the camera top and

Chris Hoyt, CXR 0:29
Gerry and I don’t even have pants on. It’s a I am a hot mess today though. I’ll be honest with you, because I’ve got you’ll see your her pop up here a little bit. But I’ve got the dog. She has a torn ACL, like a minor torn ACL. And so it’s a lab pit Shepherd mix. And Gerry’s met her but she’s energetic. Well behaved but so we have to they told us crate rester, which means she can’t go anywhere. Like we like we have to let her in the backyard. We have three acres to litter in the backyard. Like we have to put her on a leash. Oh, and it’s making her crazy. So everyone’s want to show some pop up like and we have to scold her get off that bad knee.

Joe Shaker Jr., Shaker Recruitment Marketing 1:18
I hope she does okay. Okay, and I have to give a compliment. Your construction looks like it’s complete. Like in your office, home office. It’s great.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 1:26
It’s close. I will tell you what, I have a I have a thing here. I’ll show you you’re gonna laugh. So about these. Do you know what these are?

Joe Shaker Jr., Shaker Recruitment Marketing 1:35
Do not know what those are.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 1:36
So these are soundproofing. They’re like sound dampeners. And we when we did the remodel of this office, we ripped the closet out and made it into a recording studio. Right now it’s just a closet shaped like a recording studio, but we’re gonna

Joe Shaker Jr., Shaker Recruitment Marketing 1:55
I love it.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 1:56
So then we’ll get a real show you know, we’ll have kind of a real vibe in here on the podcast show.

Joe Shaker Jr., Shaker Recruitment Marketing 2:01
That’s awesome.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 2:02
It’s exciting. Well, are you guys, are you ready to get going?

Joe Shaker Jr., Shaker Recruitment Marketing 2:05
All right.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 2:06
All right. Let’s see if we can get this started. Here we go. There’s the button.

CXR Announcer 2:09
Welcome to the CXR channel. Our premier podcast for Talent Acquisition and Talent Management. listen in as the CXR community discusses a wide range of topics focused on attracting engaging and retaining the best talent. We’re glad you’re here.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 2:39
Okay, welcome back to another edition of recruiting community. I am Chris Hoyt. I am your host for the next 20 minutes or so, I have my co-pilot. There he is. Mr. Crispin. How are you today Gerry?

Gerry Crispin, CXR 2:49
Doing doing well. Doing well.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 2:52
Welcome. Welcome to the show. Gerry.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 2:54
Thank you.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 2:55
Yeah, we’ve just returned from a week on the road.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 2:57
That was that was a lot of fun. Florida was beautiful. It was fabulous.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 3:04
It absolutely was. So we did marketing and branding meeting we had about 30 companies that were out. Lots of sharing. I think we had 28 member presentations, which was which was a lot for us number of exercises. Was there a highlight for you.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 3:20
The tour of IMG was mind blowing, not knowing much about that, but realizing that they cater to some of the world’s elite athletes who are you know, in high school kind of thing and that almost half of all of their borders go to college free. So I find that fascinating

Chris Hoyt, CXR 3:41
in saying 20% of starters come out of there or something crazy. We had the president of IMG came out and talked he was just as cool as could be. He was very cool. Smooth dude, former Rutgers football player and just super athlete super nice whole team was fantastic. Well, yeah, it was a lot of fun. Like if you’re joining us, we’re streaming live on the Twitter and the LinkedIn and the YouTube and a couple of the other those. You can jump right in if there’s a chat window, drop a hello in there, throw your LinkedIn profile in there. You can say hello, we got a fantastic guest today he’s returning to the show. Don’t think he’s been on in a little while. We’ll bring him in here in just a second to talk about what’s going on in recruitment marketing. But again, if you’re in the live chat and you’re with us, ask questions. You can just jump right in or just say hello, we might even surprise you and throw you throw your beautiful face. Maybe it’s not beautiful. I don’t know who’s out there. But we’ll throw somebody’s face up on the screen. With that. Let’s go ahead and welcome Joe There he is Mr. Shaker. How are you?

Joe Shaker Jr., Shaker Recruitment Marketing 4:37
Hello, Mr. Hoyt. Good to see you.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 4:37
Thanks for joining us. Thanks for cutting some time out of your schedule and for and for wearing clothes on the show.

Joe Shaker Jr., Shaker Recruitment Marketing 4:40
Just for you. I got to take it out of the closet right out for the event today.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 4:49
Nothing in my closet fit anymore. So I applaud you for being able to get into that.

Joe Shaker Jr., Shaker Recruitment Marketing 4:54
It may look but it is real tight.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 4:58
It’s keeping it open. Keep it open. Yes. So Joe, why don’t you give us sort of for those who may not know you were not familiar with you and your organization? Why don’t you give us kind of an escalator pitch of who is Joe Shaker? And why should we care to listen to what Joe has to say?

Joe Shaker Jr., Shaker Recruitment Marketing 5:16
Sure. I don’t know if I can tell you why you should care. But I’ll do my best. And I’ll share a little bit about Shaker and I appreciate obviously, the opportunity. Today, Shaker Advertising is a full service, recruitment marketing agency. We’ve been in business for over 70 years. So I’ve been there 72nd year in business, it was started by my grandfather, who was one of the pioneers in creating recruitment agencies, with the likes of himself and bring me Renard Otis. And through the seven decades, obviously, our industry has evolved, I’ll even say within the last five years, right, and one of the topics we’re going to talk today is just how the ever changing world of recruitment marketing continues to evolve. So as our agency, my father and his siblings really grew the agency over the last 50 years. And then they might took over about 20 years ago, when working full time and became president, just about eight years ago, and been really enjoying kind of keeping true to the core of who Shaker is. But obviously, also evolving with the times and being relevant and working with clients and partners of all shapes and sizes. So I will say one of the things I love about my job, in my seat is I get to work with my employees, I get to work with my fabulous clients and partner with all different types of partners, from media to creative to even technology partnerships across the US, for that matter across the globe. So it’s a tough it’s a fun seat that I get to sit in and privilege to keep my grandfather dream and legacy going strong.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 6:50
Keeping the legacy alive. I love it. So how big it well, you gotta do you know, a guy named Tom Strauss,

Joe Shaker Jr., Shaker Recruitment Marketing 6:56
I do know Tom Strauss.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 6:58
You’ve already got some fandom going on, over on this side

Joe Shaker Jr., Shaker Recruitment Marketing 7:02
I paid him $5 to show up, I was gonna say, you know, hey, he’s from Chicago to that’s totally wrong.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 7:08
So it’s easy, it’s easy five bucks, it’s nothing to see a time. So Joe, just kind of play on Tom’s comment. And then the whole reason we brought in like, you’ve got your finger on the pulse of what’s going on in the space from a from a marketing and branding, you own a company that’s just wildly successful. You’re doing so well. If we were to ask you, what’s top of mind for you right now in the recruitment, marketing or branding space? Specifically? What What would you what would you tell us?

Joe Shaker Jr., Shaker Recruitment Marketing 7:40
Yeah, it’s, uh, you know, I hate to use buzzwords, right, Chris. And I think everyone right now. And I think even how many vendors right now are calling you saying that I haven’t direct integration or affiliation with ChatGPT. Right. It’s the reality of the situation. And in all fairness, right, it’s good that I think finally, this isn’t something new. I mean, it’s a hot buzz topic over the last couple of months. But let’s go back the last couple of years, right? Automation, however you want to look about it. And artificial intelligence has been talked about for the last three, four or five years in terms of how it can make an impact in TA and recruitment marketing. And so yes, it’s driving me crazy. That’s what everyone wants to talk about. And the big buzzword and every vendor saying their version of Chat GPT. I embrace and I applaud, at least like we’re taking notice. And there’s going to be right with this explosion a lot more new. I think companies and technologies that come at the forefront, because people are trying to see how can they harness this. And I’m not saying this just because Gerry knows how much I respect him. And full disclaimer, there is a family relationship there. But as the godfather to candidate experience, in responding to people, one of the frustrations we always heard decades ago was there’s not enough people to respond to the amount of applications coming in. So even though we want to deliver a good candidate experience, we don’t have the budgets to hire the manpower to be able to respond to people in a timely and efficient manner. And whether or not we want to agree or disagree with that, and how to get the fundings and all conversations that we’ve had for decades. The reality is situation now with technology with automation, with I’ll say, the rise of Chat GPT, etc. Right, you can automate that process. And you can now truly respond to candidates in an efficient manner in terms of getting back to them answering the questions, and then also scheduling them, right. Why do we make people wait, we know that the longer they wait, the opportunities that are going to come at them, they’re going to move to other opportunities. And so part of this is efficiencies and speed. The first one to get to him is going to win. And that’s where I think, you know, this rise of call Chat GPT, but I’m just gonna call it automation. Call it AI is really going to change the future of the recruitment marketing space and In the organizations that harness it, whether you’d be on the partner side, or you’d be on the company side, the ones that find ways in which the harness at least that’s what Shaker is doing is like, Where can we use this to be beneficial are the ones that are going to win both companies as well as for partners?

Chris Hoyt, CXR 10:15
Yeah. So if you’re if you if you happen to be listening in, you’re watching this, and you’re in a place where you’ve got the chat up on the screen and one of those, let us know if you’re using Chat jukabuka within your organization, so if you’ve tested it, or played with it, chime in with how you’ve sort of used the automation. And what you think now I’ll tell you, Joe, last week, employment branding, marketing in person live in person meetings, right. So CXR is back. We did a demo up on on live on the wall. And thank God, it didn’t timeout on us or tell us it wasn’t available in the middle of the session, but later to see if there’s surprises, you probably won’t. We gave it some parameters and said what company we worked at. And Gerry, keep me honest on this. We told him, we had a budget to launch an EVP brand new employment brand value prop whole thing, we get a timeline. And then we also told it the we had a specific hiring need and like an increased hiring need that was off the rails over the next year at our organization.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 11:15
For a specific job.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 11:17
For a very specific job. We were hiring, I’ll just put like 1000 software engineers in the next 100 days, something like that, right, something crazy. So and then we said deliver us a strategy and a timeline and and put estimated costs on each line item. And, and I have to tell you, what came back was a hell of a starter packet. I think everybody in the room is that there’s a wow factor to start watching that. Right. But it was a hell of a starter kit. And it’s something that as a former TT leader, I might have given to a team member to go draft out and given them two weeks to do it. And it was it was like that.

Joe Shaker Jr., Shaker Recruitment Marketing 11:56
Yep.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 11:57
So and then I think the last piece was we said, well, how many people do we need? Somebody in the crowd said how well how many people do we need? And we asked, and then it laid out six job descriptions and titles of the people, we would need to successfully pull that off.

Joe Shaker Jr., Shaker Recruitment Marketing 12:11
Yep. So my answer, though, Chris, and you said it starter packet

Chris Hoyt, CXR 12:16
Yeah.

Joe Shaker Jr., Shaker Recruitment Marketing 12:17
And so one of the things that I would tell you so and I can go back to my earlier statement, those that harnesses whether they be agencies, like myself, or partners, again, or clients, right are going to be at the forefront. But it gives you it gives you a basis point to start on, I think one of the things has changed in the space, and any type of media, even if Shaker were to produce that media plan. How do you react to it. And one of the things that’s changed in our space is based on data based on metrics based on results, you know, gone are the days of fixed purchases, where we’re buying things and setting it and locking it in, we need to be able to move either drive more applications, or obviously stopped sending in applications because we meet those objectives. So even though we budgeted 50,000, instead, keep spending it on these other sorts of sites and sources. No, we don’t have to do that anymore. And so even though it’s giving you that basis, what Chat GPT today, who knows what’s going to happen tomorrow, a year from now, three years from now, five years from now, how does it react to then what happens once those ads are posted? That’s kind of the differentiator that any good provider in the space is kind of taking a look at it and then responding to basically kind of what’s, where the applications are coming in, and where we’re seeing results and where we’re not.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 13:30
I think what’s also missing from not just this conversation, but what’s happening with the discussion at Chat GPT in general, is we’re not really thinking clearly about what the candidates, the prospects are going to do with Chat GPT in response to what the employers are doing, there it is. So as the employers rewrite job descriptions, for example, that are published on a job board, the candidate can ask Chat GPT to rewrite their resume in response to the job description to maximize their competitive capabilities as an example. But I think even more so as we start looking deeply at transparency. We want to know everything there is to know about the candidates that we’re going to select as to whether they can do the job. But the candidates will want to know from a transparency point of view as to what the company will deliver to them in terms of opportunity, development, et cetera, in the team that they’re going to be at and and they should be able to get more deeply into into the weeds if you will, as to how good that manager is at developing people vary based on based on what Chat GPT can access. So I’m looking forward to the fact that there may be a balance now, in terms of access to these kinds of capabilities on both sides, and we should be thinking about decision making from both sides.

Joe Shaker Jr., Shaker Recruitment Marketing 15:15
Sure agree with that. And then the components to what are the hiring managers really saying that they want? I mean, they have to get inside the organization and find out in full transparency authenticity, like, who do they want? I mean, Chat GPT is not going to know what company a difference versus Company B and what it’s truly like to work there. So even in writing the job descriptions that will give you the core basis, but it doesn’t, it can’t tell you, you know, what we should and should not say as it relates to the companies and putting value proposition so that we obviously don’t just drive in more applications that ultimately are going to bounce like the retention, we don’t just need more apps. Well, I think that’s the right apps.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 15:53
That’s the too right Joe. People think it’s thinking. And it’s not, it’s just sort of an amalgamation of it’s just this language exercise that’s going through and pulling back a really great, you know, internet search.

Joe Shaker Jr., Shaker Recruitment Marketing 16:05
Great, but I think Chris, we can say, you know, over time, right? What’s going to happen is there’s going to be a personalization, right to Chat GPT I mean, yeah, I mean, Microsoft didn’t spend billions to not take this thing to scale. So I think it’s gonna get obviously smarter and smarter. And we all know what’s going on with personalization, like, will companies be able to go in and purchase the Chat GPT and be able to put in Persona information about what it’s like to work for the company. So it does run to you?

Chris Hoyt, CXR 16:34
You can do that. Now, to a degree, I think it’s pretty limited. But Joe, you reminded me, I think, what in the last two weeks, they announced co-pilot, Microsoft announced they’re going to be incorporating it into the Office suite.

Joe Shaker Jr., Shaker Recruitment Marketing 16:45
Correct. And it’s, you know, sooner after LinkedIn, right, we all know Microsoft’s investment LinkedIn so you can see it moving right into there as well. So you’ll see

Chris Hoyt, CXR 16:54
I’m a, I want to be careful, I don’t want to set the house off. When I say this. I’m not not a Alexa house. I’m a I’m a Google. We’re safe, if you want to all the lights going off in the blinds closing it. So when we talked to that using those commands for Bard, it seems to think Bard is already integrated, but it’s not. Yeah, right. And the budget example I gave earlier and your I don’t I don’t know if you remember this, or if we called it out, I don’t think we even call it out. We gave it a budget of 100 grand, it came in at 110. So recruiter after my own heart. There’s a lot of recruiting examples for the automation stuff, but also a lift to and I think Jim might have been Jim Durbin, I read somewhere was asking him to write a letter using scarcity tactics to a hiring manager that they should look at this candidate.

Joe Shaker Jr., Shaker Recruitment Marketing 17:48
Yep.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 17:49
So there’s all kinds of that, you know, kind of stuff going on. But is there anything sort of exciting for you from, like, in the marketing and branding space, specifically?

Joe Shaker Jr., Shaker Recruitment Marketing 17:58
Well, I mean, I think the what’s using its product placement at its finest, CareerXroads book, right? No, I mean, you would think after all these years, I can get finally get that signed version.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 18:14
I have five signed ones I don’t understand I signed to them a little off

Joe Shaker Jr., Shaker Recruitment Marketing 18:18
I’ll have to go to eBay and purchase my own,

Gerry Crispin, CXR 18:20
You can bring it with you next time you come.

Joe Shaker Jr., Shaker Recruitment Marketing 18:23
Alright, it’s probably gonna cost me a bottle wine. But well, that’s a separate in the marketing and branding space, I think it will, it’s going to help us it can really help us get more internal and external viewpoints from an organization. And so he was utilizing right automation. And we can only hope so many interviews, you call so many focus groups. You know, it’s provides scalability. And so you can leveraging the technology. And if you can harness it correctly, I think it can county gate game or some more insights, right from the likes of like a glass door and deep profiles and LinkedIn pages. So I think it can give us a more well rounded internal and external view from companies, as it just analyzes more and more data faster than a human can. And so more inputs in are more outputs out. And so the more we can take in and learn about the company, both internally and externally, and the benefit will be beneficial in any type of EVP work that we’re doing.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 19:24
Yeah, I think it’s a great call out it’s more more data collection. Yeah, and making a lot easier.

Joe Shaker Jr., Shaker Recruitment Marketing 19:30
I mean, that’s what everyone always wants, like an EVP and they want it tomorrow. Right. And there’s time. And so I do think again, with technology and automation. Hopefully we’ll be able to take those timelines. My creative teams are probably gonna go crazy right now. But like, how do we condense timelines and turn things around faster because we all know, recruiting, the longer we wait, the more costs are out the door and so we want to move quicker and faster and more efficiently. So I think those are two that we can find ways in which utilizing technology Lightship, etc to make things happen. clicker.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 20:01
So I think it will be some time until an organization can use an automation tool. Right, whichever one they lean in on to truly deliver something that’s differential that really sets them apart once somebody called out. I forget who it was maybe former Amazon, somebody called it out in our meeting last week that just said, you know, that’s a great EVP that statement that it wrote, but you could just switch the company name out, it doesn’t really align with the value. Generic yet, it’s not a true delivery of anything. It’s just, it’s just a starting point for

Joe Shaker Jr., Shaker Recruitment Marketing 20:32
That’s the starting point. That’s I’m gonna steal it and stealing your word. But that’s what it is. And to not use, it would be a mess, right. But to just use it also, at this point, right is also a mess. So it’s kind of hard, simple.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 20:45
Yeah, great, great. I mean, it’s just a really great launching point, especially for those who may be short staffed, and I’m going to ask him that 8 million questions, but I do like it. There was a South by Southwest here in Austin. Recently, I think it’s wrapping up. If it hasn’t just wrapped up, I was on the road the whole time, on purpose. But I think there was a guy who presented in his entire deck. He didn’t tell anybody until the end, but the entire deck, all the slides revered by AI, the whole thing.

Joe Shaker Jr., Shaker Recruitment Marketing 21:11
Well, hey, I will tell you, I so my oldest is in third grade, and she comes home with math assignments. So I know the train a leads at this time during B leaves at this time, you know, what time do they have to meet together? I’m like, Okay, Chat GPT. You bet. I’m Ace in third grade now. And of course, my daughter’s like, what is this, I’m like, Hey, you might as well learn it. Because some way shape or form you’re going to make use of it.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 21:36
So college entrance exams, Chat GPT, just out scored, I was off the charts just scored. But then there’s an argument that the results are more, it’s more a result of the human brain being under pressure, right? The person being emotionally under pressure to come up with the answers, and is it just faster is that sort of thing, but it just Chat GPT is gonna get a choice of colleges? Yep. Well, let’s so from I know, we talked a lot about Chat GPT, the automation element, we’ve been chasing automation for years, and trying to figure out how we clean that stuff up, Joe, if you can throw anything else you want in this, if you’re gonna write a book, about sort of what you’re seeing in the space, or the state of things right now, in the recruitment and marketing, you know, some branding space, what do you think the title of that book would be?

Joe Shaker Jr., Shaker Recruitment Marketing 22:27
The title of the book would be Authenticity, how to truly how to not falsely advertise in the world of recruitment, marketing, and how to be transparent. And so again, I always look at things from three lenses. But you know, from a partner side, as well as from company side, you want candidates want to know what it’s truly like to work there. And employers truly want to know where their ads are going. So it can be purchasing be applied in a lot of different ways. But having transparent views on what it’s like to work at a company, and also to know where people are applying for these jobs is kind of where the future is going. And so the more we can go down that path, I think will benefit both our companies as well as for the partners.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 23:12
Yeah, I love that. So you know, Joe, I got to ask, and this might be a, this might be a little bit of a sore point, given the book that you’ve got behind you. But if you’ve who you’re going to give the first signed copy to?

Joe Shaker Jr., Shaker Recruitment Marketing 23:25
Got to go to my dad. He’s still my board chair, and I’m not sitting in the seat. It wasn’t for him. But now Gerry’s, he’s got to wait at least 10 years to get a signed copy.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 23:37
I think that’s fair. I think that’s fair. Well, Joe hang out in the greenroom. Thank you so much. We’re so we’re so grateful for you jumping in quick 20 minute chats. Awfully Great to see you. Sorry. Sorry, you. You had to put on a blazer for us today. But we appreciate you’re still in shorts.

Joe Shaker Jr., Shaker Recruitment Marketing 23:51
Appreciate it, guys.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 23:52
All right, hang out. Don’t go anywhere just yet. All right, Gerry, really quickly as we sort of wrap up. We had a lot going on. We did the in person meeting last week. We talked a little bit about that. And then we had a big launch at the same time. I don’t know why we do that to ourselves. But we had a big launch of a new community upgrade for CXR.works for people to check that out. Any comments you want to I’m going to put you on the spot. Any comments on that you want to just call out before we

Gerry Crispin, CXR 24:18
I love it because it’s much more personal in terms of how it sets up. But but it’s gonna require a little bit of work on my part to get it all together, for sure. But I like the conversations that I see so far.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 24:33
Yeah, it’s blowing up. I think what we’re also seeing is, believe it or not, we’ve got chat GPT baked in to the new platform. We don’t but there but there is a little bit of an AI element to it. So as members are now following topics or as they read more topics on let’s say marketing and branding, that stuff is floating up into an automated newsletter to them they’re going to see more marketing and branding related content. If they’re following sourcing content. They can see more sourcing content so it is an exciting upgrade. for the community,

Gerry Crispin, CXR 25:01
We’re also continuing to interview folks for who are in transition as to whether or not they could benefit by membership with CareerXroads. And so far is some pretty interesting folks that we’ve had an opportunity to meet who obviously are going to land soon with or without us, but but certainly they might take advantage of our platform.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 25:25
Yeah, a quick tale on that and then we’ll go it’s called CommunityUp it’s a brand new full membership if you were a TA practitioner, who has been displaced, right so you are on the move you are in between roles. And you’re interested in that list? No, you’ve you got to be a referral from an existing or alumni member and you still believe it or not, you still have to do an interview with either Gerry, Barb or myself to sit down and really talk about what the community means and what you will be held accountable to just like the rest of our members. We got those three rules right, do the work, share the work and no assholes? That’s a big one. So we hold pretty strong to that and the membership full membership is good 60 days into your new job. So if you’re interested in getting started CXR.works/Up. I try to keep it simple. I was told there’d be no math. All right. Anything else you want to say? Anybody Gerry?

Gerry Crispin, CXR 26:11
Nope good.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 26:12
All right, well then we’re out of here everybody we’ll see you next week.

CXR Announcer 26:17
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