Chris Forman
On the the west coast and so we’re starting to have those conversations like, where do you want to be?

Gerry Crispin, CXR 0:06
Yeah,

Chris Forman 0:06
What’s going to happen if this happens, you know, because they they live in freakin San Diego. I mean, my dad calls and says seven degrees in sunny and hangs up the phone. So the idea of hanging out with me and in northern New England or my brother lives in DC about those things, but

Chris Hoyt, CXR 0:24
It’s, it’s a funny thing to work your life kind of backwards of like, where’s your like, where’s your last place to just plant a flag? Yeah, and figure out this, this, this will be where, you know, I don’t move anymore.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 0:38
I do think that more and more the children of older folks are going to have to get serious about how that works. Because it gets more complicated, I think. Oh, yeah. And, and so you should have those conversations with your parents. You really should. I had that conversation with my daughter. She did not initiate it. Well, she was she was yelling and screaming about you know, 80 miles away and the problems that that would entail,

Chris Hoyt, CXR 1:06
Because it’s too far.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 1:08
I would have I would have moved back years ago. Diane was not really interested. And you know, she loves the house we were in. Yeah, I do too. But But this will this will do this will do fine. Okay.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 1:22
The pictures were lovely. You had the you had the birthday party for diet was great.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 1:26
Yeah, yeah. Well, we had a birthday party the same day they had St. Patty’s Day Parade. So I basically said the term was welcome your backs. There we go.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 1:38
Good for good for her to come back. Yeah, she probably wasn’t buying it. But But hear me do nonetheless. Yeah. All right. Well, you guys, you’re ready to kind of jump in here and get going.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 1:47
You got it.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 1:48
All right. Let’s do it.

CXR Announcer 1:51
Welcome to the CXR channel, our premier podcasts for Talent Acquisition and Talent Management. listen in as the CXR community discusses a wide range of topics focused on attracting, engaging and retaining the best talent. We’re glad you’re here.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 2:21
All right, all right. All right. Good morning. Good afternoon, wherever you’re listening. Hello, my name is Chris Hoyt. I am the host for the next 20 minutes on the recruiting community podcast. And I am going to bring in my partner in crime here, Mr. Crispin, there he is. We were both dialed in from different places today. So I’m on the road and you are wrapping up a relo.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 2:44
I am I’m I’m 80 miles from where I normally live, and now I’m living, you know, in the North Shore of Long Island in New York.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 2:54
I love that. Well, that is not the only change that we’ve got going on before we bring the guest in today, which I’m excited to welcome him back to the show and chat him up. I thought we you and I could just chat for just a minute about the new community up outreach that we’re doing. You want you want to chat that up for a second?

Gerry Crispin, CXR 3:10
Yeah, it’s you know, I’m actually excited by the interviews, part of it is there was a tremendous response when we said, look, if you’re a leader in transition, particularly if you’re a member, but there are there are if if you’re sponsored by a member, and in transition will will let you be a member of career crossroads of our community for that period of time, because it gives you the opportunity to engage in building your network beyond a network to a more of a community issue. And, and fundamentally, I’ve had some incredible conversations with some really great leaders that I had not met before, and a few folks who who at some point probably will get there. They may not be ready for our for our community yet, but we’re interviewing everybody who expressed an interest.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 4:07
100% And it’s kind of interesting. So for those who aren’t aware, CXR.works/up. And Gerry and I were talking about this I guess we’ve been talking about for months but we pulled the trigger a few weeks ago and just said I think just two weeks ago where we said if you’re in transition if you’ve been displaced and and you are alumni of CXR, or you are referred by alumni of CXR, either current or past right who’ve been we will interview you for a full blown membership and no limitations you get you get a full membership there. So that’s all the meetings, the lectures, the classes, the you name it, even the live meetings, and we have had almost 200 applicants fill those out. And some in true recruiter fashion and I love me the recruiters, right? I mean, we are good people, but some of them halfway filled out the application and it’s not a complicated application. It’s like six fields. It’s not this is not a stretch for Mensa. These are super easy, like, put your LinkedIn URL in here, who do you know that sort of referring you and you know, that sort of thing. But we are with 100% return.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 5:13
And I got I got five or six of these a day

Chris Hoyt, CXR 5:15
I have three today. I’ve three.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 5:18
So I feel almost like I’m a recruiter again. And and to be honest, and I think we should be fully transparent here. Not everybody is getting a yes. But the feedback is clear. At least I at least they’re telling me it is when I’m say we can’t really go forward with you right now. Yeah. Because there’s some things that you really need to be able to do in order to take advantage of it. The level of engagement that you have to have with other leaders is is part of the steel.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 5:49
Yep, yeah. So I encourage everybody to check it out. You’re gonna end up on our calendars. If you apply, I promise, we’re gonna we’re gonna get back to you. Everybody’s gonna get something back. But that’s six interviews today. I had a couple yesterday, I had to move some things with travel. But we’re getting through all of those. And I’m super excited about it. What I’m also super excited about is to welcome back, Mr. Foreman. So let’s bring him in out of the green room. There he is.

Chris Forman 6:12
Hey how are you?

Chris Hoyt, CXR 6:13
Nice to have you back.

Chris Forman 6:14
Same. Thanks for having me. And I think the CXR up, this is the first I had heard about, I think that’s a great idea. We’d be happy to support you in whatever way we can to allow you to bring more of those folks on it. I think that’s super.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 6:29
Great. Well, thanks. Well, we’ll, we’ll happily take you up on that. That’s exciting. It’s good stuff. It is nice to meet some new folks who’ve been in the space for a while and we haven’t had a chance to connect with. And we get a hit from leaders. We haven’t spoken in a while. He said, Oh my god, I love this. I have the perfect person that would benefit from this. Because, you know, it worked for me. And it was helpful for me and that sort of thing. So we’d love it. It’s good stuff. Cool. Well, Chris, so we’re gonna talk about pay per application today. So a little little cost per application chat today, and you are the man with some of the data to talk about this. And you’ve been in the space for a while. But for those who don’t know you, why don’t you go ahead, I’m gonna give you that full screen treatment. And why don’t you go ahead and tell everybody who you are, give us sort of the escalator pitch of who is Chris Forman?

Chris Forman 7:15
Sure. Well, thanks so much, Chris and Gerry, again for having me back. My name is Chris. I’ve spent the last 25 years in the recruitment technology, space building and growing companies because I am structurally unemployable. If I filled out that form for CXR Up I’d probably beaten denied, because I throw the toys out of the pram on a regular basis. Most recently, and this will be my capstone gig here after after app cast. I’m done. I’m the founder and CEO of app cast, which is part of step stone, the third largest jobs business in the world. And we build software that helps large enterprise employers by an optimized pay for performance job ads. We’re about 400 people and right now it’s a snow day in Meriden, New Hampshire. So Sarah is I think making brownies in the kitchen. From home. So anyway, that’s me. Thanks for having me.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 8:11
Spring Break snowing brownies.

Chris Forman 8:14
There we go.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 8:15
There’s the dream. Yeah, well, okay, so I love we were just talking for those who may not have come in right on time where we were chatting up where we end up with from a home standpoint, but it’s an interesting statement, Chris, where you’re talking about this is kind of my gig. This is my rap. This is my gig, this is the big thing that I do until I just don’t do it anymore.

Chris Forman 8:35
Ya no, And, you know, no, I’m, I’m definitely the runway lights are on. You know, another great thing that I’ve enjoyed over my career is working with and watching unbelievable young talent develop from x into, you know, 10x. And happily, there’s a, there’s a cohort of brilliantly smart people at Appcast. And also in our industry there. It’s their turn, they’re going to they’re going to go build companies, they’re going to go run organizations, they’re going to join CXR. And so, I’m, I’m enjoying doing what I’m doing right now, but somebody else is going to build the next company.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 9:13
Love that. Love that. Well, so talk to us a little bit, there been a lot of changes in the market in the last number of months, most notably from a cost per application versus cost per click, there have been some shifts sort of in the space. Is there is there anything you call it? I mean, we all know that last October there was an announcement from Indeed that they were going to sort of shift that model a little bit that kicked in some people were caught supposedly unaware, right? They hadn’t been keeping up maybe in their in their inmail, so their emails and didn’t get the notice or said they didn’t get it. So they got a big, big bill at the end of it. I think indeed made that right. On the on the side of that right from a communication standpoint, making a right with everybody, but now we’ve got some mid sized organizations and TA leaders kind of wondering, well, what does this mean for me? Like, do I do a stick with this customer application piece do do I need to actually hone in on what is what really is an application for me when it’s a click to a completion? And how do I track that? How do I cap that as if I’m sitting with you? And I guess I am Chris, if I’m sitting with you and asking as a TA leader, what do I need to know about this to sort of still go back to feeling warm and fuzzy about the work that my team does in the candidate flow? What would you tell me that I need to know?

Chris Forman 10:25
Yeah, so first off, I think pricing model, whether you pay for a duration based posting, you pay for a click, you pay for an application start, you pay for a completed application, or someday theoretically paying for something further down the line. There’s upsides and downsides to every pricing model. It’s just a pricing model. So you know, like, there’s, this isn’t putting a man on the moon, or, we were talking about Elon Musk earlier and boring, you know, kind of holes underneath the Earth, so people can avoid traffic. It ain’t that complex. Okay, so the, the key thing is to understand, to instrument, your recruitment funnel really, really well. If the, if the funnel is instrumented, you’re going to be able to buy, you know, kind of eyeballs, you know, in essence, job seeker active job seekers in a whole variety of ways. And as the workout no matter what, so what does instrumentation actually mean to me, you should be able to track the impression of where the job seeker actually sees your ad, you need to know what ad that is, you need to be able to see from the impression, the click from the click, you need to be able to see if they start the application. If they start the application, you need to see if they finish it, if they finish it, you need to be able to track it to whether or not it was somebody that you wanted to talk to, there’s a quality application. And then lastly, you got to track to whether or not you actually hire this person. If you do that, here’s a dirty little secret. There’s good job seeker traffic in our marketplace. And there’s bad jobs. Your traffic isn’t bad is not there, good people and bad people, felons and nonsense we’re talking about people that you want to hire, and are actually going to, you know, kind of complete the application. And, and, and folks that won’t. And sometimes the folks that won’t, are fraudulent, sometimes the folks that won’t just you know, are incented, to click on things, because somebody else is making money, but it’s not necessarily solving your problems. But if you have that instrumentation, you’re gonna win, and you’re gonna win by you buying the good stuff, and let you know, the knucklehead next to you buy the stuff that isn’t any good. And honestly, right, there is a 30% improvement in your return on investment. And of course, now we can we can drill down and we can talk about how you use that information. And, and by smartly for let’s say, one to one corporate jobs versus high volume jobs versus ever Gods versus, you know, pacing, but again, it’s not putting a man on the moon. Now, the reason why a lot of the idea of paying per application is a war shot test. There are some people that don’t like it. And there’s some people that do like it. So let’s talk about the people that like it, are the people that typically buy travel insurance, when you book an airplane ticket? They’re the people that that do that like HMOs with no deductibles. Okay. So it’s a safer model, in that you only pay when somebody actually fills out the application. Yeah, it may not be a good application may not be somebody that you hire. But it is significantly closer to an event, you know, at Appcast we’d like to say you can’t hire a click, but you can hire an applicant, it’s significantly further down. And the billable event is something that you can actually look at right. Now, the people that don’t buy, you’ll prefer not to buy applications, but let’s say prefer to buy typically the next pay for performance level up, which is a click, nobody really wants to buy postings anymore. But on the flip side, if you are very good and very sharp, and you’re a marketer, you can figure out probably how to squeeze out more value out of buying per click. But to do that, you need to you need to really understand what you’re doing, you typically need to have software to do it. It’s a much more complex environment to operate with it. So these are the folks that you know, in the old days, the way that you’d save on the airline ticket is you would buy if you end up going to let’s say to San Francisco all the time. You buy the ticket on out and the return three weeks later. And then on the way back you book a different ticket and then you have ends that you don’t use but you got the three week price even if you’re you know you’re booking at the last minute. Yeah. That’s that type of group. So So broadly speaking, more effort, more risk, more complexity provides the ability to generate my, you know, in some cases, materially more or mildly more performance. Well, when you’re buying per application, it’s just a lot more straightforward. Yeah, each motion. Yeah, go ahead Gerry,

Gerry Crispin, CXR 15:24
Yeah I was gonna say, as you’re talking, you know, you can almost picture in that funnel each of the touch points that you mentioned. Yep. And how critical each one is, particularly from, you know, what is the yield on getting from that, and, and what portion of that yield actually moves into the next, you know, touch point. And then you, you start to look at the quality of each each throughput, if you will, there’s one, I think a psychological change that takes place when the can’t the person who’s gone through this funnel actually presses submit, because their, their, their view of themselves changes from someone who might have been interested to someone who has actually demonstrated interest in a job. And that is the point at which they believe they’ve become a candidate. Yes. And so we we, we can also alter our reaction to each of those touch points, in terms of how we respond to that, from an automatic point of view to something that’s going to have to be a little bit more experiential in terms of how we treat them.

Chris Forman 16:43
Yep. No, that’s, that’s definitely true. And in a previous world, I spent a lot more time thinking about, you know, kind of job seekers and how to talk to him, you know, after the application complete in this world, you know, I’m, I’m all about the top end, you know, and is now a black box. What’s super interesting, though, is like, if you get the instrumentation that I talked about, and it’s rare to be able to get all of that, especially with some of the major sites, it’s much more of a black box, like you put in your budget, you don’t have bidding, you pay at a different level. But

Chris Hoyt, CXR 17:12
I was gonna say, Chris, it’s sorry to interrupt you, I was gonna say that sounds easy. But there are just so many organizations who can’t get their level of tracking in at all.

Chris Forman 17:22
No, and and it’s, it’s super hard. And there’s a lot of self interest, not self interest. A lot of secular issues in the recruitment tech stack that make it hard. To be able to do that instrumentation, you need to be able to take information that starts, let’s say, on a job site, and transfer that into an applicant tracking system. And then you need to get it back from an applicant tracking system and put it back into your ads. You know, try. Again, that technology is super simple. It’s called a click tag, where at every point in time, there’s a little alphanumeric that gets passed from one person to another. And what you need to do is you need to have that go on your ATS fourth, click tag. Did somebody apply? Whatever status in the ATS you’ve got? That is quality? Tell me when it hits there. And tell me when you hire him?

Chris Hoyt, CXR 18:21
Yep. Yeah, oh, did we lose them?

Chris Forman 18:31
Oh, I’m back. All right. Sorry about that, I guess. No, it’s forms. But so so it’s hard to do. But it’s not it’s not complex. But when you do do it, it is so powerful. So like, Gerry you know, you were talking about how you understand where somebody comes from, when they apply, you can understand how to treat them differently. Well, part of this also helps you understand which ad units are most valuable at the places that you’re buying from, you may find for your retail jobs. And we actually know this and apply from a job alert, within a certain amount of time after the job immediately became available, are the people that will respond at the highest level and also get hired at the highest level. Okay, well, if you’re in white collar job, you know, when we start to see multiple touch points, like, you know, and this is when you get into something called multi touch attribution. Oh, they saw this job on Indeed, they looked at somebody on Glassdoor they went on over to zip recruiter and then finally they applied from LinkedIn. Now all of a sudden, we can see correlations between that type of window shopping with whether or not so it’s super interesting, and we could spend hours talking about it. But I think the key thing is forget about how you buy you know, there’s upsides and downsides to both sides. The most important thing to do whether you’re buying per click or you’re buying per application is to endeavor to pay appropriately for what you want. And there’s this really interesting, you know, whenever I sit down with with, you know, members of CXR or, or other clients, they’re like, What the hell are you talking about isn’t cheaper, better? And I’m like, well, in some cases it is. But in some cases it isn’t. And they’re like, well explain that to me. Well, what is your objective? When you’re in trying to get an application, I would argue that there’s four different types of objectives that you may have. For jobs, like, you know, a TA leader. There’s I imagined, Gerry, because you’re old as dirt, you’ve written at least a couple of articles about this, like the cost of having that position open. Right?

Chris Hoyt, CXR 20:44
Yeah.

Chris Forman 20:44
So what if I came to you and I said, you pay me, the market going rate for let’s say, a director of TA is $25, and apply just making this up? Okay. But what if I came to you and I said, I can deliver you all the applies, you need within 48 hours of the job going live, but you have to pay me $100 per apply? Right? Which one makes more sense, I would argue the $100 per apply, because take a look at if you can bring in time to hire by 10 days.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 21:17
Yep.

Chris Forman 21:18
You know, spending a couple grand on applies is like rounding errors.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 21:22
That’s the Chris, the perfect example of that is maybe maybe not the TA leader, but any sales territory, you can see, you can see the declination of sales, when it’s empty store manager, and you can see how that slope continues, the longer it’s empty, right. And the cost of that just adds up into huge numbers. And so fundamentally, the smartest companies always have a salesperson in the wings to throw in, in order to in order to plug that gap, otherwise, otherwise, the cost of coming back up, is just as just as hard after it’s gone down. So yeah, it’s it’s a cool issue, you pay a fortune, you know, to do something like that very quickly.

Chris Forman 22:18
So pay for speed, right? I mean, that’s a huge thing. But, but like it all of a sudden, when we start talking about the light bulb goes off, oh, you mean, measuring my cost per hire, and saying I want to have a lower cost per hire than I did last year, is what I want? Well, in some cases, maybe. But in certain cases, I would argue no, if in fact, the cost of having a lower cost per hire is an extension in the time to fill. And then you’ve also got, you know, like, there are certain jobs now in the blue collar space where, you know, you’re not hiring warehouse workers, you’re not hiring restaurant workers, you’re not hiring delivery people, you’re hiring people that are willing to work in a set of situations for $18 an hour. That’s the market that you’re recruiting from. And what’s interesting is that market ebbs and flows based on a whole variety of reasons, those reasons are all different based on geography and political environment that you’re in and labor market environment. But, again, whether you’re paying per click or you’re paying per apply, let’s say you need 100 of these people a week. Well, if what you do is you bid the same that you did last week, you’re gonna end up paying the same per week, and some weeks, you’ll get what you want, and some weeks you won’t. But what’s interesting is that if you are constantly monitoring your conversion rates, so let’s say the week starts on Monday, you put a set of bids on out that actually deliver a set of applications at a greater rate than you expected, you can actually decrease how much you pay very quickly, and still glide to where you’re gonna get well in other weeks, where all of a sudden, let’s say, the box store next door is at 1850. Yeah, and they’re flooding the zone with all these ads, you may see it go way up, because that’s what you need to do. And you got to be okay with that. So again, you know, this idea, we’re finally at the point in recruitment marketing in certain elements of the market, where like, we’re pricing labor, like you can literally see in certain markets when the certain when certain things are being done appropriately. Holy crap. It’s just more expensive to recruit. Not because somebody’s being a knucklehead is because it’s actually more expensive to recruit that week. And so, you know, this whole thing is, is we’ve, as you know, Chris, Gerry, you may jump like anybody who’s been in this industry for a long time has talked about the professionalization of the marketing function within recruitment. We’re now at a point where ooh, truly if you’re a big enough company, it’s a myth. If you’re good at this It’s a million dollars.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 25:02
Yeah.

Chris Forman 25:03
Either saved productivity, lower cost better outcomes, like it’s no, it’s no longer kind of like, well, we’re gonna have better colors and a nice invoice, employer value proposition which, you know, no matter, no matter what any executive says that’s really hard for them to measure. But if you say, Hey, we can fill the funnel, we can get people hired faster, and we can do it for less money. That’s something every CFO is going to love.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 25:28
Yeah, what I wonder how many folks though, are making that sort of shift? Because it’s kind of funny to talk to some of the young leaders who are coming in and have these these great ideas. I mean, didn’t we all these great ideas of all the things we’re going to fix? And all the things we’re going to change as we move into this, but But oftentimes, some of that stuff that’s a little more difficult to track and set up, just gets put on the back burner?

Gerry Crispin, CXR 25:49
Again, it occurs to me that the, the emergence of recruiting operations, so having someone who has program experience or you know, that kind of thing, as well as the metrics, and the analytics, fundamentally, I think has created an extraordinarily added value to ta when it’s applied the way you were talking about it, Chris.

Chris Forman 26:17
Yeah, it was true. And, you know, Chris, and Gerry, what you’re talking about is, I mean, it’s near and dear to my heart. What? What I’m talking about is boring. It’s math. I mean, like, it’s, it’s, it’s 10th grade algebra appropriately done every single day. But that’s the, you know, the beauty of boring is that if you do it, right, you know, as I tell you sitting here, you know, white middle aged guy with gray hair, borings my life and you can do pretty okay in life being boring. And

Chris Hoyt, CXR 26:49
Yeah, well, I’ll steal a line from one of my favorite recruiters used to be on my team as they came in. And we were just starting to talk about this concept years ago, and she looked me dead in the eye and said, I’m sorry, I was told there’d be no math. Yeah, sorry. There’s math. Sorry about that. Mrs. Payne, my eighth grade math teacher. I’m so sorry for being such a dick. I really should have been a better student in math class. I really apologize. Yes. Oh, man. Well, Chris, let me ask you. And you know, you know, because we’ve asked you before, but we got a new topic today. And the conversation if you’re gonna if you’re gonna write a book, about this topic about what folks should know, and sort of just this concept, what do you think you’ve titled that book?

Chris Forman 27:30
Oh, gosh, well Why Everyone Should Have a Gold Duck on Their Desk.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 27:46
Why Everyone Should Have a Gold Duck on Their Desk. I like it,

Chris Forman 27:52
There’s a gold duck on my desk. And so gold duck means something. So this was a present from my boss in Germany. And I think he gave me this present, because I was going to kidnap this golden duck out of our office in Germany, we had our offices redundant and COVID to incent everyone to come back on in. And they have these beautiful gold duck things that were on our big boardroom table, and nobody could see each other between these board meetings. And first off, I’ve never had adult duck light. And so I thought that stealing one would be great, too. I wanted to see my colleagues. But, um, the reason why I’m telling the story is one, it’s a great metaphor, you know, makes people stop and pick up a book if it’s about having a gold duck. But the reason why there’s a gold duck on my desk is the fact that math and thinking creatively, is what built Appcast and what allowed us to be part of step stone. And, again, the I truly believe that recruitment is marketing, a little bit of art, and then incredibly good sales organization. And so if I were to write in the book, The metaphor here is, is that, you know, recruitment should be a gold duck, we do should be gold plated. And if we actually got treated like, we were in sales and marketing, we we would revolutionize the world. But anyway,

Gerry Crispin, CXR 29:25
I think I think both Chris and I liked that a lot for a couple of reasons. We, and, and we may steal some of this, Chris, but we have been for almost 20 years at every one of our meetings had a an event in which we shared ducks, so of all kinds

Chris Forman 29:50
Ducks of all kinds. All right, yeah.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 29:52
Yeah. 100.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 29:55
We just did a survey of our members going back into Um, you know, our meetings or face to face meetings, asking if we should bring back the ducks. And everyone said, You got to bring back the ducks. So we’re going to be well, I

Chris Forman 30:14
Next time I’m in Dusseldorf, Germany. So, you know, step stone big jobs classified business. We have this beautiful office in Dusseldorf, there’s still a few gold ducks around that.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 30:24
Take a picture.

Chris Forman 30:25
i Well, no, I may. I may smuggle a few back for you

Gerry Crispin, CXR 30:28
Steal one. Yes, that’d be great.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 30:30
I’d love that. Yeah, I just ordered 150 more ducks and I had them shipped with IMG Academy next week. We’re coming back to live events. So we’re super excited about it. But I just had 150 Little yellow ducks sent to IMG last week for the for the meeting.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 30:45
I think we I think we’re gonna build this into a whole myth, Chris. There you go.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 30:52
All right, Chris, who you’re gonna give your your first signed copy to and just can’t be anybody on this podcast. Oh, my God. Oh, I love that. I think you did that last time.

Chris Forman 31:03
Yeah, no. So like my dad here. I’ve got a couple of my dad’s written a couple books here. You know, he’s from the industry. Fearless HR actually was a top selling business books in the United States for a while, and Fearless Talent choices. So like any good son mildly in competition with my dad, so I have to if I write a book, I gotta give him

Gerry Crispin, CXR 31:26
the first time. And when does he do you remember when he was with Sherm I think, cuz I think I was on insurance board when he was there. Yeah.

Chris Forman 31:34
So so he worked for them doing their certification stuff.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 31:38
And in the 90s, right?

Chris Forman 31:42
No, it was in the 2000s. It was post 2008 Because that’s when we sold EHRs. He worked for the human capital Institute. He worked for EHRs did our certifications at EHRs. And then did that for the global Sherm certification program. And I think the one in the United States but yeah, and now. They is companies called Sage. And it’s sage world headquarters is the forming garage in San Diego, California. So whenever I talk to them, I’m like, where are you like I’m in the world headquarters says,

Chris Hoyt, CXR 32:15
I’ll drive by there this week, because I’ve been hanging out in the San Diego suite by Cool. Well, thank you so much for joining us, I’m gonna I’m gonna take us out really quick with with just a reminder, you can connect with Chris directly, you can obviously Appcast website and connect with Chris directly on LinkedIn, we put that up a couple of times, easy, easy guy to find, and just a wealth of information. And then I’m gonna remind everybody else to be sure to check out if you’ve got some leaders or folks you know, within the TA space that are on the move, they’re in transition, they’ve been displaced, and they’re interested in strengthening that network and being part of a community it’s CXR.work/up. It is a complimentary full membership for folks who come in and are referred by alumni or our current members and we do an interview with everybody to make sure because you still got you still got to qualify we’ve got a couple of rules for membership you still got to be okay with, but it’s full membership for anybody who’s in the middle of something and we’re carrying your membership 60 days into your new employment. So that’ll help you come in looking like a rock star using some of the resources in your first few meetings and we’re happy to help you with that. And with that, I guess we’re gonna say goodbye and we’ll see everybody next week.

Chris Forman 33:20
Thanks so much guys.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 33:21
Thanks everybody.

CXR Announcer 33:26
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