Chris Hoyt, CXR 
What’s kind of interesting for me is I have not I have not watched the Harry and Kate piece yet and you know, one of my I won’t say resolutions. But one of my things for this year was I was going to do more documentaries than like fiction. Like watching TV because I do consume a bit of TV in the evening when I’m when I’m done. Relaxing. So Harry and Kate Have you seen it yet? They’re on my list.

Moira Lynam, HireUp 0:21
Harry, Megan.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 0:22
Oh, sorry Harry and Megan would be really interesting. It’s let’s just get it started. You heard it here first. Yeah, that’s really unfounded. Have you have you? Have you seen it yet, though?

Moira Lynam, HireUp 0:44
I have seen some of it yes, I have, I have to admit, I have seen some of it. It’s a bit, it’s a bit disturbing parts of it to be honest. Because, you know, there’s somebody in distress. And, you know, who’s taking advantage of the situation where exactly where are their layers of the people who are, are taking advantage of the situation. But if you do sit and watch it, when it’s in front of you,

Gerry Crispin, CXR 1:12
You know, they are human beings at at base, but it’s it is hard to get to get to a level of empathy that you might have for a no name person undergoing similar kind of circumstances, when you consider the elevated places they’ve been. So it’s, it’s really an I think it’s a self observation of the fact that there are humans at every, you know, at every level, if you will.

Moira Lynam, HireUp 1:43
Yeah.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 1:46
Yeah. Well, what I what I have watched is three episodes of Kaleidoscope that flies in the face of my documentary, not resolution, but my my documentary approach for the year. But that is a really different way, if you haven’t, if you haven’t kept up with Netflix has some new show where we’re so off track, I’ll bring it back a promise. Netflix has this new show where I think there are eight or nine episodes there each. They’re not numbered. They’re named different colors. And Netflix is giving to you those on your service in a different order than everybody else.

Moira Lynam, HireUp 2:24
It’s unique to you.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 2:25
That’s right. Well, quite as as unique as eight or nine episodes can be right around the world. But they give them to you in different military just to recall during our podcast hwhatever order you want, but it has to end with the same episode. And it’s really out of order. And it’s kind of turned its head. It’s turned watching a series kind of on its head because they’re different snapshots.

Moira Lynam, HireUp 2:57
And I guess the hook Kaleidoscope thing makes sense.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 2:59
I would argue that Pulp Fiction is the birth of the out of order viewing experience, that your brain still ties together at the end.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 3:07
I’ll buy that.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 3:09
Yeah, there. I think there is a release out there somewhere that you can you can watch Pulp Fiction in chronological order all the scenes. You can watch them in chronological order, which changes the story completely,

Moira Lynam, HireUp 3:23
Not for very long term.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 3:25
Yeah, but it does. It does raise an interesting approach of people doing things differently. Things we’re used to doing. We’re watching shows in order. We’re mixing it up and we’re doing things differently. And I guess Moira, I told you I’d bring it back. We’re gonna talk a little bit about that today for referrals. Right.

Moira Lynam, HireUp 3:39
Very good. Yes, we are.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 3:41
You think I’d have 300 episodes under my belt? All right. Well, let’s do it. You ready?

Moira Lynam, HireUp 3:50
Yeah.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 3:50
Yeah, here we go.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 3:53
Welcome to the CXR channel. Our premier podcasts for Talent Acquisition and Talent Management. Listen in as the CXR community discusses a wide range of topics focused on attracting engaging and retaining the best talent We’re glad you’re here.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 4:23
Okay, everybody, welcome to the 355 episode of our recruiting community Podcast. I’m excited to be here with you today. I am Chris Hoyt, president of CareerXroads. I am your host for the next 20 minutes or so. We’re we’re just going to have a chat with an industry friend or colleague, somebody doing something kind of cool in the space? Or who has an opinion that we actually think deserves more ears. And so if you’re with us live, you can comment on the live chat. I think that’s that live chat is featured on Facebook and on LinkedIn. But we’re also on YouTube and Twitter in that live stream. If you happen to be with us and able to chat live you want to drop something in there. You can ask a question Our guests today are Gerry and myself, you can just come in and say hello. And if you feel so inclined, if you’d like to strengthen your network a little bit, go and just drop your LinkedIn profile in there and see if anybody can connect with you. As a reminder, we are a membership based organization. And this podcast really doesn’t have anything to do with that side of the business, except the fact that we really like to chat with folks sit down and chat with folks about what’s going on, and what’s top of mind for them. So this is not a revenue generating effort for us. This is most definitely something we’re doing just just to catch up and say hello, and sort of spread the word. So I have a little bit of news, I want to spread the word about today, I’m pretty excited about I’m going to bring in Mr. Crispin, to spread that word with me, Gerry, how are you?

Gerry Crispin, CXR 5:42
Wow, cool. I’m gonna sit back a little bit. So there we go.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 5:47
We’re going to 50/50 frame but in a minute, don’t worry, we’re gonna. So I want to share, I’m gonna throw us off to the side here we have a launch today, I’m just going to take about two three minutes outline. And we’ll jump in with our guests today. But it would just kill me if I didn’t share. Here you go. We have launched a learning platform, little mini learning platform, if you will, within CareerXroads, and it’s at CXR.works/learning. This is the page that you’ll get, you’ll see we’ve got five courses, four are currently in development, and we just launched the new one. This week, it is free for everybody through the remainder of the month. So we’re pretty excited about that. And I’m going to show you really quickly if you go into one of these the foundations for candidate experience, which is the one that we have just launched, and I want Gerry to ask you about that in a second. But I just want to show folks, it does consist of four different pillars of candidate experience, attraction, selection, closure, and execution. And each of those are delivered by a founder of the Cande’s of the talent board, the candidate experience awards, as well as the current President over at talent board Kevin Grossman’s, we have Elaine Orler, Ed Newman, Kevin Grossman, and of course, Gerry Crispin, to talk about those. And when you are complete with that certification, excuse me, when you’re complete with that, you’ll actually get a certification that easily with a click of a button goes into your LinkedIn profile. And that can be shared with third party organizations, when you are looking to count up hours of work that you’ve done. And it’s got a unique ID code on there that can be QR scanned and shared so that folks can validate that for you. So Gerry, let me ask you really quickly, your your sort of takeaway you are the godfather of talent acquisition and recruiting, and we as we like to refer to you, and of course, one of the one of the cofounders of talent board in the candidate experience awards, you had a segment in here, you want to take just a minute to share why this is kind of interesting, and why folks should be taking a look at it, and then we’ll jump right in with our guest.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 7:46
Well, I think, you know, part of it is the folks that have been most active in the last 20 years around the issues of candidates, if you will, as a champ you know, championing that candidate experience, if you will, is a critical component in how we should be doing our business in the 21st century. And And fundamentally, the this program is much more about what are some of the basics that people really should the seatbelt issues, if you will, that we need to be dealing with, with candidate experience. And then hopefully, nuff references for where else people can go in order to begin to make a difference in their own practices and policies about how they treat candidates. But I do think it’s a train that’s coming at us more and more, because the candidates themselves are gaining power as we speak, and are becoming much more you know, critical, if you will of recruiting process. That’s more than a few years old.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 8:57
All right, well, I’d encourage anybody check it out. CXR.works/learning, you can see those again, it is free for anybody who wants to take it by the end of the through the end of the month. So you can get in login register. Take that on. It’s pretty quick process. It’s about one hour in duration. And it’s actually it’s kind of fun. I went through it and I knew almost all the answers to the quizzes. But it went pretty well. It’s pretty easy to do. So Gerry, thank you so much for being part of that and help them to stand that up. Alright, so without further ado, let’s go ahead and bring in from the greenroom. There she is. It’s Moira from HireUp more how are you?

Moira Lynam, HireUp 9:34
I’m very good. Thank you. How are you doing today?

Chris Hoyt, CXR 9:37
I’m doing really well. Thank you for joining us I want to point out it is HireUp with a lowercase p on the end and I think the title might have been my fat fingers when I typed these in and set them up so it’s not higher up it’s just HireUp that so why don’t for those who may not know who you are haven’t had the pleasure of connecting with you Why don’t you give us kind of a an escalator pitch on on who are you and why should we be listening to you today.

Moira Lynam, HireUp 10:01
Sure. Thanks very much, and thank you for the platform. So who am I? Am I alone am I based in Dublin although I have spent much of my career outside of Ireland, I have had a number of roles and global positions in the Human Resources space in chief people, Officer roles in Asia, across Europe, and originally in Ireland. So my career has been all about developing my approach to leadership, understanding the importance of transformation in businesses. And quite frankly, just being agile, asking questions, being relevant finding hunting out the problems, in in businesses, with my colleagues, and then looking to identify solutions to address those in a meaningful way that adds to the bottom line discussion. And that’s really what got me here, which is where I’m now currently the CEO of HireUp, which is a firm focused on revolutionizing referrals. We believe in, as you just talked about the candidate experience Gerry and Chris, we also believe the employee experience in referrals is it’s about time that we all got really serious about that. And started to change the language and the relationship between employees, their networks, and employers organizations. I talked to revolutionising there’s a cultural revolution taking place inside organizations as culture is coming to the fore. And we have the opportunity to really advocate about culture, from our CEOs, CFOs, CEOs, anybody with the C and and beyond that in front of them, and advocate culture, on the way out through your employee networks, but also advocate candidates on the way back in by using really simple tools to help you do that. And that’s what we’re doing.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 12:12
So let me ask you, I think it’s really interesting. And I love to be the devil’s advocate. I want to get on these to make for a fun conversation. But let me ask if you ask most employers, whether employee referral, telephone looks like right, but it was funnels look like a lot of them gonna take 20 to 30.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 12:32
So you are breaking up by the way, Chris. Okay,

Chris Hoyt, CXR 12:35
I’ll reboot and jump back in.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 12:36
this is exactly. So Moira I will some more if you heard what he was saying. Tell us a little bit about how you how you see this happening.

Moira Lynam, HireUp 12:51
Yeah. So I believe Chris was going the the pipeline is about 25% of total talent acquisition journey. And I agree, I call it the journey to 30. In fact, in that you have the opportunity to think about referrals as being part of a talent strategy. But most organizations don’t actually know what percentage are many, not most, many organizations don’t know what percentage of their strategy is dictated by employee referrals. So they’re not tracking it in a meaningful way. But they’re also not tracking the experience of referrals. And we live inside large platforms, which is which is very important, again, for particularly for large organizations. And we get a little bit dictated by the KPIs and the platform’s requirements, we need to stop and think about what were what do we need to see from an employee referral? And what does the employee need to see? We’ve we’ve all experienced the black hole effect, I’ve got a CV, here’s the CV has, can somebody help me with this person, I think is really valuable. I know what this team needs today. I know what the problems are. And I’ve got the person to help us solve it. And it’s crickets because nobody knows where where that candidate CV has gone to. And we’ve solved that problem. We can we track it for the employee, we track for the employer, and we track it for the candidate. We give visibility of the job, we give visibility of the performance, the payout of the awards that you get for recommending somebody and also get the chance to advocate you got to say, which I think is the most important aspect of revolutionising referrals is the chance not to be seen as part of a data scraping. I’ll just send it out at will to my network that I’m looking to put my voice and my credibility to that candidate and you’re bringing that back inside the organization. So I see growth from 8% Sorry, I’ve probably answered very big there. So grow With generally 8% to 30%, it’s part of a wider talent strategy. It’s part of a data pool, it’s a lead indicator of information about the well being, your culture, your employee engagement, and your connection with your employees by by just looking at your employee referrals.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 15:22
I mean, I’m, I have such a fan of the fact that we, we have such an opportunity in the 21st century to look at the connectedness that we all have. And, and the difficulty, there’s, I mean, there’s so many different challenge points within that framework, everything from friends and family kinds of referrals, that that are a problem for many companies in relation to that, to to ways in which that connectedness can enhance diversity as opposed to bias that we often attribute to that. So if we’re, if we’re identifying the the very ways in which we we have those connections to people who might work for us. And fundamentally, we’re able to measure that and understand the sentiment on both sides, we should we should be increasing our ability to do a better job in recruiting long term, and yes, it should be probably 30% or higher. In almost every company. You know,

Moira Lynam, HireUp 16:36
We know we’re sorry, Chris, on the land back to things. We know that b2b is 52% of referrals. So, you know, businesses done on a referral basis on a b2b basis, why why aren’t we thinking about that in the same way and the employee candidate experience? And the second thing as HRM just recently released a report which shows employee referrals are the second source of hiring. So in the US, if there’s a second source of hiring, why aren’t we doing it well enough? Why aren’t we taking the time to really be thoughtful about that experience? And and think about the improving and being part of an ATS platform, as I’m thinking and thinking, gosh, now I’m gonna have coming in, and I’m running modular programs. But it’s a great opportunity for candidates, and also for employees, to power of people. The power of connections.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 17:56
Yeah, cool.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 17:57
Yeah, you’re still at it. Might be, you know, so Moira, I would, I would argue that, that referrals, in fact, are first. It’s just we’re not measuring the extent to which that’s happening. So and I’ll give you one great example is, most sourcer, so we attribute a sorcerer’s effort to hiring, one of the basic techniques of any Sorcerer is to go to the hiring manager and the team and and look at their LinkedIn connections, and then ask for permission to connect to them, which becomes a referral in itself, but doesn’t get attributed to the, to the individual that made made the statement, yes, this is a person I know or should know. And you can call them on my behalf and talk to them. And what it what it creates his fascinating approaches. The other is, is so many coaches will tell an individual who’s a candidate to go to the company and find an individual that they can connect to. And very often that doesn’t get counted in the formal referral program. So now shut up. But the reality is, we’ve got a lot of work ahead of us. And we’re going to need tools like higher up in order to be able to be confident that we’re making good use of it in ways that we intend to.

Moira Lynam, HireUp 19:32
Yeah, I think that’s that’s great insight. And it’s, it’s the tracking, it’s understanding the data flow, what’s happening inside your your organization. And, but because we have to be much more thoughtful about what people want the shift in the relationship that has taken place between employees and employers over the past 24 months or so, shifting again, Obviously, there’s uncertainty around what’s happening around us. But, you know, I think as employees, we’re looking for something different. We’re looking for a different dialogue and a different relationship. And you do in a connected network, you are much more able to help to support people to success to performance, the onboarding time, is much faster. And you just don’t want you just don’t want your network to fail. Right. So your relationship is is very different. But your point is very well made about just you know, how do we track that sourcing and we need to be better?

Gerry Crispin, CXR 20:42
Let’s hear you Chris.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 20:43
All right. Can you hear me 123123? Well, Gerry did call it my point, I had another side point, I’m noticing a trend of people saying s HRM. Instead of Shrm anymore, and it just I’m not, I’m not gonna get on board with that I can’t, because I like the word Shermie. That feels a little Cheramie. And I can’t say that there’s a little s hr me. So that’s all the value I have to add to that actually part of the conversation.

Moira Lynam, HireUp 21:10
That’s very insightful.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 21:12
It didn’t seem to me though, outside of the Shrm stuff, it does seem kind of interesting to me that, for so long, the referral aspect was simply it was just enough to put a link out there, it was just enough to quit. Because I remember ages ago, in another lifetime, there was a program with lots of payout for employee referrals, big big payouts. And at the organization I was at, the CEO said he was done doing payouts for referrals, he was done, you ought to be proud to work here, you’ll want to refer people you shouldn’t have to be incentivized. And I remember my recruiting team was terrified at the time, because that was 30% of the candidate flow that came in, alright for them to sort of sort of pick from and when he when he turned it off. There was no change to the candidate flow. Like none. And so for a while, I think we saw a lot of people pulling the investment out of that, right, from a reward standpoint. But I think here we are, again, we’ve now we’re now seeing organizations figuring out sometimes innovative ways to incentivize that referral process. And I think, to Gerry’s point earlier, before I had to do a quick reboot. And the impact that that does or does not actually have on on diversity in the worries of DNI from from a referral program.

Moira Lynam, HireUp 22:31
Yeah, so we have two referral piece is about behaviors. And sustained behaviors will obviously keep it going. And we can through COVID, with some of our organizations, we saw them switching off. And, you know, obviously, everybody went on hold, and the minute and came back on the behaviors to switch back on. And again, I can push that back to that it’s a lead indicator of how people are feeling about working around here. And that’s, that’s positive. The question around should you share by rewarding employees, you know, there’s some thoughtful discussion that needs to take place around the price of the tag that’s attached to the payment to balance behaviors, so you don’t set up individual recruiting desks. But to that diversity piece, what we have seen is quiet networks. And so those networks where people don’t automatically manage their way through the potential bias that exists inside the brewery selection processes. And it’s a great opportunity to navigate and manage manage that in the appropriate way, because the organization still makes the decisions that you can surface quiet networks in in a very different way, by having platforms that are working on, you know, referral policies that are thoughtful about the promotion, how they’re getting those jobs out to the network. Have they put together a diverse network to send the job out to or does it all look the same? And are they Is there a challenge taking place inside the TA teams to do this just a little bit differently and a little bit better?

Gerry Crispin, CXR 24:21
I think a lot of it has to do with our willingness to be much more transparent about the data we’re collecting and sharing that back into the system. So you know, if if they’ve got a bunch of experienced managers, if you will, who only refer people as old or older than themselves, that could be a problem. But, you know, some of those leaders should know young people, they should know people who aren’t the same gender, they should know people aren’t the same color. So the reality is we we should be sharing the kind of data that allows us As to see whether we’re building a diverse referral network, that that reflects us as a society and reflects our performance going forward. So I’m convinced that more transparency is needed. And, and I’m a fan of a different kind of incentive were in effect, you might get some points. And then somewhere you pull out a, you know, a great opportunity for someone. But that random, that random approach doesn’t mean that everybody’s getting, you know, a few dollars or a lot of dollars, it means that someone gets gets a prize somewhere in all of this. And I think that that’s as good an incentive as you need.

Moira Lynam, HireUp 25:46
Absolutely. And we, you know, we are, we’ve built a competitions, just from HireUp perspective, we have built a compensated competitions, capability inside the platform. But you know, part of that when we talk to employees, we say, it could be cash, but it could be a phone, it could be charity, it could be something think differently.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 26:10
We saw a lottery drawing last year, I think for a car. One of our member companies did that for folks who, who referred people to come in and that every every referral was an entry into a into a drawing.

Moira Lynam, HireUp 26:21
Yeah. But to understand, understand the behaviors, you’re trying to, you know, what are you trying to drive? And then when you’re using all of your tools, are you consistent in the messaging and use of those tools to ensure that you’ve got that colaboration.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 26:38
behavior that I would want to to incentivize for each and every person is visibly telling people who have referred folks who have come in and been successful, that that’s the kind of behavior I’m looking for in our community of employees, of, you know, sharing with us and with your friends and colleagues and peers, that this is a great place to work because that’s what we’re striving for. And and if you know, you are referring people that come to work, and help us move forward as a company, I should be, I should be patting you on the back telling other people about you and promoting the hell out of you. Because that’s the behavior I want from leaders.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 27:25
Moira which would you say that, and I hate to get too granular, but would you would you say that if from the programs that you’ve seen put out there is is it incentives, so or is it recognition that you have seen in your experience, sort of perform, have referral programs performing better like I’m climbing the ladders? Because I have, you know, referred for points or whatever type of recognition that I have referred more hires than anybody else that are successful? Or is it lottery drawing cash payouts? You know, that sort of thing? Like, where’s the sweet spot that you’ve seen?

Moira Lynam, HireUp 27:57
So it’s really driven by the culture of the company, right? And, and that’s where that culture of peace has to be really understood and thought about. You’re in a high turnover organization, the question we ask is, well, why are you paying it six months in when potentially those people aren’t there anymore, so you’re running a referral program that they can’t access? So think about in different types of organizations where you’ve got high, high profiled highly skilled knowledge based workers, there is a combination between the competitions and the cash. Because we all know right, in the world that we live in, people are motivated at various stages by very, very different things. And so it is about taking time out to consider the population that you’re targeting, have what have they got? But you’re either topping up or do you or have we an opportunity to do something different? So I guess it’s not a one one size fits all it is, it’s about being but working through what’s happening uniquely in your organization, and the value sets that you’re you’re trying to deliver to that wider message.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 29:14
I think its a great call out varies by function could vary by culture, right, and the different types of jobs that are being rolled

Gerry Crispin, CXR 29:20
That culture issue is a key issue, I think, because I don’t believe that referrals are viewed the same way. In India, China and other countries, as we view here, and I think the in the US, we’re much more able to differentiate between our family, our friends, and our peers and colleagues who could be doing a better job. Whereas in other countries, in some instances, my face is my, my, my perception of myself as an individual changes if in fact, I refer somebody and you don’t have I hear them, then I lose face in light of all of that. And so fundamentally, in some some areas, that’s a problem we have to overcome and in other countries, I really have to, I have to refer all of my cousins, my family and everyone else before I refer anyone. So because they all need a job,

Moira Lynam, HireUp 30:23
Yeah. And yes, to that point, but emerging markets or emerging markets, you know, and there’s evolution in those markets. And the conditions have have changed 15 years in emerging markets, and the conditions have have changed. And you know, that the face versus family, they exist, absolutely. But the the emerging markets are always looking for opportunity. And it’s about how you tell that opportunity. And you’re still building culture, you’re still building norms inside organizations and behaviors. And you can still manage to navigate through that.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 31:06
Yeah. And I like what Cynthia commented on that innovative referral programs can help with a great week tension. And clearly, as long as performance is equal to or better than the average that works. Otherwise, I don’t want to be retaining those folks who aren’t performing

Moira Lynam, HireUp 31:27
My other thought process, to that point about performance, because we generally tie payment to the performance of the candidate who we have made the decision about as being acceptable to our organization, but we’re holding back payment for probationary periods of performance, etc. You’ve got to also question why are we doing that? Why are we tying those two ends together? Is there opportunity to make some shifts paid some of that upfront, to recognize or to you know, access? Again, because you’re, it’s about trust, transparency. And this, this is the behavior that we want. So we have to make some shifts too.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 32:10
Moira let me ask you, are you seeing a difference in I know, historically, there’s always been a back and forth about where the payment comes from, right? Who Who funds the award? Or who funds the sort of the payout, whether it’s the business unit, or it’s the organization as a whole? Or whether it comes out of a TA budget? Are you seeing any trends one way or the other? Or is it just still kind of all over the place? Depending on how organizations are built out?

Moira Lynam, HireUp 32:34
It’s basically how organizations are built out. So whichever, whichever revenue stream you’re dealing with, with the business unit that you’re dealing with, we’ll we’ll make the call on where the payment is. But I liked the point I think that you’re making around talent is not business units owned, sits and see the ownership of the wider organization. And why, you know, why don’t we think about it in those terms. So I don’t disagree on that.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 33:04
It’s an easy thing to say until you know, people start putting money down when you start looking at Yeah.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 33:11
I’m more concerned about the baseline practices for how we treat both the person who’s been referred as well, as we refer the person as the person who did the referral. I want the person who did the referral to have some knowledge of the status of what happened.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 33:28
Well, you do the same as a regular candidate, right, Gerry? Like, doesn’t get treatment, right?

Gerry Crispin, CXR 33:33
Well, you know, if the person who’s referred, you know, doesn’t get the time of day doesn’t get any closure isn’t told when that we’re no longer interested in them. Everybody’s embarrassed, including the person who did the referral, who’s not going to be doing that anymore. So so we obviously have to tie to the systems and technologies that allow us to track this, measure it etc. We need to be able to track the sentiment around some of those baselines so that we know when we’re going astray, if you will, or or that we’re we’re doing things that enhance everyone wanting to do even more of those referrals. And that I think is really where the power of moving it from 8% to 30% is going to come from

Moira Lynam, HireUp 34:25
It’s the transparency is the trust, it’s the belief it’s those you know, we’re all proving to each other that that it’s working, we’re generating quality candidates where they’re being landed in the organization live line of sight of what’s going on. And so we’re we are huge advocates of transparency at all stages for for that purpose, because again, you know, that advocacy company advocacy is what you’re looking for from your employees by sharing their networks.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 34:53
Yeah, I would argue that the the treatment of a referral should be the exact same as the treatment, who’s not a referral they shouldn’t with the technology today says we can do that, for whatever reason we choose not to, or we lend on, you know, manpower, horsepower, whatever you want to call it. But I would I would give Gerry, I would give it on the fact that your referrals could tank twice as fast, if not exponentially, you know, more quickly, if if you’re not paying attention to those referrals, you could kill that program lickety split. But I think that that level of transparency is actually deserved by all the candidates.

Gerry Crispin, CXR 35:32
I mean, the only thing that is is different, Chris, is the fact that there’s a referrer involved, and communication with that referer back and forth, is not going to be an element in a non referred, you know, situation. But But But yeah, I agree it we should learn from the referrals doing that really well and correctly, a lot about candidate experience, that, that we should be transferring some of those practices to the non referred group as well.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 36:05
Yeah. Oh, go ahead.

Moira Lynam, HireUp 36:08
Yeah, sorry, I was just going to draw Jerry’s point out about the referrer. And, you know, let’s be really clear, the referrer is your employee. And that’s, you are sending messages about the relationship, if you’re not managing that in the best way that you possibly can to provide that level of transparency to everybody involved. You don’t want that employee referrer to be the ex employee because of that lack of engagement.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 36:44
All right, I’ve got I’ve got two questions left for you. The first one, who’s doing it really, really well. Who would you out as an organization that’s doing the referral process and follow the whole kitten caboodle? Who’s doing it really well?

Moira Lynam, HireUp 37:01
That’s really unfair. Somebody like me, I those organizations, gosh, because it’s so multifaceted, right? Because it depends by which measure. So if, if it’s by which measure of of recognition, your traditional advisory financial services firms are doing it well, but those people who are focused on culture, who understand the importance of culture, and are looking to lean into that and really build that out with the employee relationships, those of the organizations that are doing it well, and agile organizations, the the ones who can make the decisions quickly, who are able to cut through it, see it very well and are willing to trust so I ain’t calling anybody out!

Gerry Crispin, CXR 38:05
We used to CareerXroads used to take every year data from our members about source of hire. And there was many I used it as a lab, because there was so many problems with how you measure source of hire. That it it was a little bit wonky always. And so I would be lab error is really what the report looked like, but but we would out our members in terms of those that are between kinda under 20 20 to 30 and above 30. And we would attempt to bring them together to talk a little bit about the practices that they used at that level. And you could see distinct differences in terms of how people, you know, were either too casual, or they didn’t have the kind of audit or measuring tools to be able to do that. And still, from the last time we’ve done this, not enough of our members are in fact using using specialized tools. They you know, because because they think they can do it without that. And fundamentally, that’s a lot of extra labor and work. And the whole idea of technology tools is to is to cut through all of that and automate some of those things. And focus in on what you should be doing so

Moira Lynam, HireUp 39:41
The clean on that point is the inconsistency of the measurements. And actually, do we actually know what they are? Do we do we really, you know, have we got really good hold on on some of those key metrics and And we all know each organization as well, you know, have their own set of metrics around which they’re measuring. But, you know, part of what I’m hoping that that we’re doing is raising awareness, to have the conversations to start to think about it, are there a consistent set of metrics that we should all commit to? And then you can you build your unique metrics from that. And I think that will be helpful in so you don’t have this data, you start to build consistency around data as well. Yeah.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 40:33
Well, okay, so Moira Let me ask you, if if you were gonna write a book today, around this topic, what would the title what would the title of that book be?

Moira Lynam, HireUp 40:45
Because it’s today, because we’re in the world that we’re in. I think I’d call it Quiet Revolution. You know, we we have a lot of discussion, around hiring around movement, internal mobility, and you know, all this quiet are quiet hitting, quitting. These are cycles we’ve seen in the past, but to me actually quiet revolution, in the referrals space. It’s that opportunity to make, create those opportunities for people in organizations. And then using your organization, your network and the organization to help to meet those strategic requirements by having this quiet revolution around referrals or quiet referral revolution, maybe, because you know, where you if you’ve just laid off 12000 people, as an example, there’s still churn in your organization, you still need to recruit, you don’t want to from a, a market position. You don’t want to be out in the market saying we just laid off and now I’m recruiting. But you can use your referrals to help to build that quiet revolution inside the organization, build the behaviors, build the engagement with your employees, and take it from there. So quiet revolution.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 42:17
I like there’s a lot of quiet, there’s quiet quitting, there’s quiet firing quiet hiring quiet networks, quiet revolution, there’s a lot of quiet stuff. Next to maybe 24 is going to be the year the loud stuff. All right. Well, thank you so much. We’re so gracious. We’re grateful for the time that you given us to you’ve been such a gracious host. We appreciate you dealing with our ramblings and some technical challenges. So very, very appreciative of that.

Moira Lynam, HireUp 42:43
Thank you. Thank you for your time, great discussion.

Chris Hoyt, CXR 42:45
You got it. Well Hang in there. I’m gonna put you in the greenroom. And I’m just going to share some folks here, I’m gonna put you in there with her too. How’s that? Here we go. There we go puppet master with all the slides. Let’s see if we can do really quick screenshare. I’m going to pull this up and share with you we’ve got a couple of events coming up. It’s, you can find this here we go. Perfect cxr.works/events. This is what’s going on for the rest of this month. If you’re with us today on the 24th Obviously we just wrapped up this podcast, we’ve got a DE&I community meeting that is just ahead for our members. So you can join that on the 25th on the 26th. Our next lecture series concentration and hybrid work coming up on the 26th That’s for members as well. And then our next podcast guest and that is coming up we move that screen a little bit on the 21st we have friend Chris Havrilla who’s going to be joining us we’ll do that live stream tears well we get into February with our campus recruiting meeting. And then of course high volume recruiting, taking us on after that so I’ll just pull that out and tell everybody we’re super grateful that everybody was able to join us CXR.works/event and I want to remind you CXR.works/learning just launched this week. It’s free through the end of the month. Check it out and have fun with that and we’ll see you next week on the show

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