Chris Hoyt
Alright, gentlemen, how are you?

Gerry Crispin 0:04
Just dandy.

Chris Hoyt 0:05
Do you like the like the part where you roll into the podcast? Like you haven’t been talking for five minutes yet and you turn it on and it’s just like, Oh, hello, welcome. I’m glad you made it. John, you’re you’re looking pretty good, dude. This is gonna sound a little weird, but I’m going somewhere with this. Do you work out? Are you?

John Wilson, WilsonHCG 0:24
You know, I try. But I have two young daughters that kind of keep me busy running after them. So. Yeah, yeah,

Chris Hoyt 0:33
we’re, yeah, we’re so Gerry and I’ve talked about this before, too. But I’m reading. I’m reading the Arnold Schwarzenegger book, be useful. And it just reminds me that while I was in great shape, pre pandemic, pandemic hit, now I’m a slob. And I’m just I’m thinking well, okay, I need to get back into it. So this morning, we got up and we worked out. We have a little gym, we got it worked out, and I’m hurting this morning. Like, I’m really, I’m very uncomfortable.

John Wilson, WilsonHCG 0:59
For sure. It’ll beat you up when you get back into it.

Chris Hoyt 1:04
Yeah, but it’s not very motivating to listen to Arnold tell this motivational speech about how he was moving the equivalent weight of a moving truck every afternoon. Because because you just need to envision it, you just need to picture it in your mind how to be successful.

Gerry Crispin 1:19
I just saw an interview with him. And he was obviously promoting the book. And he was just bitching about the fact that he looks at pictures of him when he was in his 20s and 30s. And now he looks at his body in his 60s. And and he’s, you know, he’s obviously very depressed. And I’m going, you know, you still look better than 99% of all the people in their 20s and 30s. So,

Chris Hoyt 1:47
Oh my gosh. he’s a tank. He says it is a good book, though. Has any other Have you read it yet?

Speaker 1 1:52
No. I have not, I started the documentary but have not not finished.

Chris Hoyt 1:57
Yeah, I think we watched the first episode of the documentary. We’re halfway through the book. So I’m gonna finish the book. It’s kind of like a highlight reel of the book, but it’s pretty good. Check it out. Yeah. All right. All right. Well, you guys ready to get started talking business? You betcha. All right, let’s talk shop.

CXR Announcer 2:14
Welcome to the CXR channel. Our premier podcast for talent acquisition and talent management. Listen in as the CXR community discusses a wide range of topics focused on attracting, engaging and retaining the best talent. We’re glad you’re here.

Chris Hoyt 2:27
All right, everybody. Welcome back to the show. I am Danny DeVito. And with me, my sidekick, today’s Arnold Schwarzenegger, How are you?

Gerry Crispin 2:51
So good.

Chris Hoyt 2:53
That’s horrible. That’s absolutely, that’s as bad as my godfather. It’s absolutely as bad as.

Gerry Crispin 3:00
Nothing is as bad as your godfather.

Chris Hoyt 3:01
When we wrap up, I want you to tell everybody that you’ll be back can you do for me? All right, look, if you just if you just jump in, and you’re joining us, just as a reminder, we are streaming on the YouTube, the Facebook, the LinkedIn, whatever the heck the the X or the x, the Twitter, whatever that’s called nowadays. You can you can join us there. If there’s a chat window, we’re going to ask that you go ahead and say hello, in that if you’ve got questions for our guests today, we’re pretty excited about this. You can ask those questions, you can throw in your LinkedIn profile, you can just connect, we’ll do our best to throw those up on the screen. We do go back, if you’re watching. If you’re watching this after it’s aired, we do go back and answer any questions that come up in those who check those from time to time. A little bit of housekeeping before we jump in really quickly. Gerry and I want to share we’ve got it’s still a little it’s kind of beta ish, I would say but we’ve we have done a mat. Yeah, you agree. We’ve done a pretty massive update, or upgrade based on our member feedback and some member ideas to the directory, the solution structure that we had. For those for those who don’t know, and I think we’ve mentioned it on a previous show. We created this directory because our members were asking for a list of the basically the tech stack, right and solutions that their their peers were using, what ATS were they on? Did they like and that sort of thing. And then it has been five years Gerry? Maybe?

Gerry Crispin 4:18
Yeah.

Chris Hoyt 4:19
Yeah, about five years. This thing has evolved from a spreadsheet that we would share into its own platform that now has I want to say we’ve just cleaned it up because so many acquisitions, so many mergers, so many craziness over the last couple years with tech but and solutions. I think we’re about 350 vendors sit in there. These are vendors that at least one of our members said that they use and we’ve got about 6000 ratings and reviews that have been collected and we’re importing those in.

Gerry Crispin 4:48
And that’s key. I mean that and I think some of the features of the kinds of information we’re collecting and the ability of each member to be able to reach other members using the tools so that from a pure platform point of view, they can benchmark, why people are using it and how well it’s working for them.

Chris Hoyt 5:08
Yeah, I’m excited that we added a couple of things this morning, there’s a calendar link. So if there are a vendor solution provider in there, they can add a link directly to an appointments page, they can add a one click download. And then we also opened up the social aspect for our members. So members who are logged in and have submitted ratings, and we’ve collected those, they’re going to be able to go in and see their peers immediately, who have also added ratings. Right, right. So none of this anonymous crap. Once they’re in and you’ve added those ratings, you don’t have to reach out to Gerry and I to say, ‘can you connect us’, anymore? Now you can connect directly to them. So if you want to check it out, cxr.works/directory it is a work in progress. So if you see something broken, or it’s missing the feature list, no whole thing designed and developed and delivered by our membership. So we’re pretty excited about it. Cool. All right. Oh, and as a reminder, we will be in Sydney November the 29th. So if you want to come out, I think we’ve got almost 50 people registered for that meaning. It is free. We are not charging for that, of course, our members can join. But we’re also inviting people who are not members come in, strengthen your network learn a little bit, we’re going to be talking strategy, we’re going to be talking. What did somebody say that strategically, we’re gonna have some strategic recessions.

Gerry Crispin 6:21
That was a royal we, because I’m not going I can’t get my air stream across the great divide. And I’m certainly not gonna be sitting in economy anytime soon.

Chris Hoyt 6:32
Gerry, I’m 99% it will flow or 91%. It will flow. If you’re interested. You want to learn a little bit more about that. CXR.works/Sydney. It’s that easy. Alright, so I want to go ahead and bring in our guest today. Maybe let’s do it again. We’re having a glitch. There’s a glitch in the Matrix today. There he goes. All right, John, can you hear us? Okay.

John Wilson, WilsonHCG 6:57
Sure do. Thanks, Chris. Thanks, Gerry.

Chris Hoyt 7:00
Right, what welcome. So so before we kind of jump in, because we got some stuff, we’re going to talk about what trends and what you’re sort of seeing in the space because you sit in a really great chair to do that? Why don’t you give us sort of what we call an escalator pitch of Who is John Wilson? And why should anybody listen to what you have to say today?

Speaker 1 7:17
I don’t know why they’d listen. But I can tell you who I am. Relevant to this conversation, started Wilson HCG in 2002. felt like there was a gap in the market when it’s the time again, early 2000s. Looking at what was happening in the talent markets, specifically staffing, I felt like it was highly commoditized there was very little focus on what the client was trying to accomplish, or on your own internal people, even though it was necessarily people business. And through that time, we’ve built the organization, we span six continents, 20,000 employees, in support of the some of the world’s most admired brands.

Chris Hoyt 8:09
I love that. Yeah, love that. There we go. We’ll bring you back. So we’re so John, we’re going to talk and you’ve been you have been doing it a while. I mean, 20 plus years, but and Wilson HCG is not small. You’re in 63- 65 countries and six continents. Is that what I read?

Speaker 1 8:26
Yeah, that’s correct. I mean, it’s, it’s interesting, because when you support global clients, you start finding yourselves in markets that you didn’t even No, you would ever do business in or let alone employ people in. But it’s, it’s been a very exciting journey to see. One hand one side how similar people are no matter where they are in the world with the same wants and needs and desires for themselves. And, and then the different customs and how that all can mesh and merge into a corporate culture.

Chris Hoyt 9:06
I love that. I love that. So I have a list of things that are the kind of going on in the space from a topical standpoint, that have come up in conversations and the meetings we had this year. I want to give you a chance, John to float up anything that that you think we should most certainly be aware of. But from Can we can we just start from a technology standpoint of sort of trends and what you’re seeing?

John Wilson, WilsonHCG 9:31
Yeah, I think the there’s a gap right now between what people are talking about and what people are actually doing. And everyone you speak to is talking about AI and how it’s going to change and continue to evolve, especially as it relates to recruitment and how people do their jobs. I think all of that is probably accurate at some level that AI is going to be a force as it comes to back end recruitment operations, as it will be instrumental in the back end of all business operations. I do think that it’s…we are getting ahead of ourselves. If we think that the, the AI is going to replace recruiters, I always challenge people walk around your office, ask them if they got a call from a robot, would they be in the job they are today? It’s an astounding No. What company what we’re seeing companies use. And I think this goes into a larger trend of the the growth of the CHRO. The focus on data and analytics and being able to project and see a little bit into the future. Is is really top of mind. I think we’ve seen a focus on the contingent labor markets becoming more part of the CHRO’s remit. And there’s a focus of how how they can start seeing things holistically and then being able to action from that data.

Chris Hoyt 11:18
Cool. Yeah, it was definitely call out. I mean, I think one of the conversations we’ve been having is around this whole How does AI play into direct recruiting? And it’s kind of interesting. We had, we were out in Napa, we did a leadership summit just a number of weeks ago, feels like yesterday. But but we had a gentleman get up. And he starts sharing information about these different analytics aspects of analytics with regards to application rates. And he mentions the fact that they have already scrubbed and I think this was new to quite a few people in the room, because you kind of heard the room do it, but they had already scrubbed the AI applies from the data. And I think for a second for some of the leaders in the room, they’re like, What do you mean AI applies? Like we you know, we can use AI for this and that, but candidates are using AI to, which was kind of interesting. And I don’t know if you guys have heard of it yet. Lazy apply? Have either of you seen this yet?

John Wilson, WilsonHCG 12:15
I have not.

Chris Hoyt 12:16
No? Oh, my God, the numbers make sense. So we tell I have a Gen Z kid who you know, was applying for work applying for requirement, getting so frustrated applying to all these places I get back in and the pitch that you give to applicants is who are struggling, it’s kind of a numbers game for the most part, especially when the candidate experience is so shitty, right? For the most part. Lazy apply is this AI powered service. And I guess, for $200, you get a lifetime membership. And this provides a solution to automate your job applications. So it will target 1000s of jobs based on these these inputs or these parameters that you put in. Now. It’s wildly inaccurate, because it guesses some of the screening questions, right? It doesn’t actually it’s not really AI, right. It’s just it’s just this bot going through and filling it out. But then I read an article this morning, there’s a gentleman who had applied for 5000 jobs while sleeping for this 200 bucks. And it led to like 20 interviews for him.

John Wilson, WilsonHCG 13:16
Get out.

Chris Hoyt 13:17
Yeah, yeah, that’s way more interviews that he’s getting applying to, like 100 on his own.

John Wilson, WilsonHCG 13:23
And I think you bring up a very good point, because AI has to there’s going to be more need for human to manage AI where we’ve seen instances where with pre employment assessments, where someone is plugged in to AI, hey, here’s the assessment questions. And here’s the job I’m applying for, how should I respond? And we started seeing a trend with a client where for a few weeks, they were having almost perfect matches from the assessments. And the in the historical rate was about point 01 People were coming up is like a perfect match. So I think there’s going to be more need to validate data and make sure you’re trusting data. John, can we can we get a bot to check for bot answers? And really your bot?

So true.

Chris Hoyt 14:28
Yeah, it’s going to be pretty interesting. I think. So some of them I think Sonora was 80 bucks a month, I think, Massive for like $39 does 50 apps a week but with a human reviewer. So I do think it’s a problem. But I think it’s it’s a quiet part not to steal quiet, quitting and all the other bullshit labels but I do think it is a quiet problem.

John Wilson, WilsonHCG 14:47
Yeah, I agree. And I think it’s just going to come where is it gets more advanced when you think about the downside of being an individual who does that or utilizes that service at what point is AI going to be able to give us the ability to reputation manage somebody, or be able to see how many jobs if posted for applied for. And these are all things that are possible in the future. So it’s, it’s just a very interesting time.

Gerry Crispin 15:16
Yeah, just just as it’s important for the candidates to know, how many of the 200 people who applied for each job, actually someone got back to, and close them out in a in a appropriate a respectful way. But the whole thing here is, it’s just coming into power, if you will, that we have not had as as candidates, ever. But employers have had the power to make the decision and ask for every piece of information that candidate is supposed to give. Now, we’re going to start seeing a hell of a lot more on the part of the candidate being able to get or infer information that they’ve never been able to do. And and by the way, Chris, if you apply to 5000 jobs and got 20 interviews, that’s still less than one per 100. So So fundamentally, I like that whole piece, because now 20 might give you at least one offer.

Chris Hoyt 16:20
Yeah. Yeah. I can’t feel like, if I put my recruiter hat back on, I don’t care. I don’t care how many jobs you reply to, if you make it to my desk, and you’re qualified. I don’t care how you got there.

Gerry Crispin 16:32
Exactly.

I think I think we’re where somebody is going to have a little earpiece. So that so that as you ask that virtual question, there’s a there’s a whisper there’s a, you know, interview whisper going on. Right, right. In real time. That’s, that’s the one I’m looking for.

John Wilson, WilsonHCG 16:52
But I think that’s going to, and that may happen. And I believe that companies are going to have to focus a lot more on l&d and getting certain people in the door and upskilling them to the job they need them to do.

Gerry Crispin 17:08
Right. Great point, John, and as well as you know, making better use of the people you have internally, and helping upskill them so that they can continue to move within the organization. 100%. Very good.

Chris Hoyt 17:26
Yeah, I agree. I think it’s super interesting. Think the number of TA leader at one last comment on this one, I think the number of TA leaders who are now experiencing that candidate experience that lackluster candidate experience, combined with Gerry, your point that shift that balance of power shift to sort of level the field. For the candidates, I do think we are we can expect a reemergence of a focus on candidate experience. I think it will be different than we’ve ever done it but I do think that’s coming in 2024 2025.

Gerry Crispin 18:00
Yeah. How about the staffing industry itself? John? I mean, you’re seeing two sides of all of this, you have, you know, obviously you have a lot of clients are seeing you engage them, you seeing how they’re operating, et cetera. But you also are part of an organization that goes way up in the good times very often and gets hit, often the first and hardest during the tough times.

John Wilson, WilsonHCG 18:28
Yeah, it’s been a it’s been a very interesting year. And I think the the point that I think leaders are facing, regardless if it’s in our industry or outside is that there hasn’t been an event. This is the first time in my career where we’ve seen a market downturn. That hasn’t been preceded by a global pandemic, or global financial crisis or a bubble bursting. In that coupled, I think with the high interest rates, it’s driven uncertainty across the board, which has made the employment markets in a lot of ways freeze up similar to a stock market, where we’re seeing very, very little voluntary resignations within organizations, Wall Street Journal just did an article last week about it. And at the same time, all our research and our data saying people are as unhappy as they’ve ever been in their current jobs. But what that uncertainty does, it drives people not to make big decisions because there’s uncertainty. And I think that kind of coupled with the myths that I believe the BLS numbers that most people look at, have been wildly off. And you know, as we saw last week, a down jobs number and then they revised down another negative 300,000 jobs from the prior two months. So it makes it very hard for people to have a real understanding. And I don’t mean myself, I’m thinking, you know, CEOs of big companies, when they’re deciding, should we invest in talent right now? Or should we hold? I think a lot of them are holding. And it’s not that they’re on major hiring freezes, but they’re not thinking about growth. So there’s a, it’s a very uncertain environment. Something like I’ve never seen that uncertainty, I wouldn’t say it’s bad time or good time, just uncertain.

Gerry Crispin 20:36
Interesting.

Chris Hoyt 20:37
So let me let me shift gears just a little bit, because Dell issued a report or shared a report, I guess, this this week, or at least I found it this week. But it was recently published where there was a whole bit of research on Gen Z, and kind of their outlook, from from an economic scale from, you know, can the government help help fix things or right the ship? from an employment standpoint? John, do you have any Gen Z predictions from where you’re sitting and what you’re seeing? So their integration into the future workforce? And like, from a TA perspective?

John Wilson, WilsonHCG 21:11
Yeah, I think there’s, we’re always evolving, I think just the general population as they come into a workforce evolves. I mean, I remember when I first started, I was wearing a tie every day to work. I’m wearing jeans right now. And this is about as dressed up as I get. And that was just that, that evolution happened from different generations coming into the market. But I do think that there’s defining events in the workforce for each generation. And, you know, I everybody was saying, the millennials are gonna be terrible, the millennials are gonna be terrible financial crisis hit, millennials were not ended up not being that terrible. But everybody said they weren’t going to be. Same thing. As we look at the different generations, every generation that comes in, they’re going to be worse than ever. And they figure it out. So I think with the way that the environments inside of companies have changed and evolved, where it’s very rare that you see a company has everybody working, I mean, I’m from I’m working from home right now. You both of you appear to be working from home. Work can get done anywhere. And so the thing that I worry with Gen Z is the remote working is the lack of in person mentorship, that can can just not occur because people aren’t face to face. But again, I think we just have to continue to evolve. And what the work workforce looks like today is not what it will look like in five years.

Chris Hoyt 22:50
Yeah, I think it’s pretty insightful. I mean, I would totally agree, I think one of the biggest challenges that generations probably got in front of them are some of the norms that a lot of us took for granted that we learned in the workspace, just just basic etiquette, or interactive, you know, when when we’re interacting with leaders, or we’re interacting with colleagues, and I think they aren’t getting that sort of, would you call that field education? Right, that that informal sort of education piece, I don’t know that I can’t make a prediction to say that they will suffer from that one way or the other. And, John, I love your point of it does feel like every few years. So there’s, there’s a barrage of articles on how to deal with the next generation, right? We’re all, you know, everybody gets to be, you know, get off my lawn for the next five years. But I think it’s pretty insightful.

Speaker 1 23:35
But on the flip side of that, and the big positive that new generations and younger workforce is bringing is when you, 20 years ago, when you think about diversity and inclusion. You I mean, this is real. I mean, you have people who were a lot of racists and bigots and stuff like that were inside companies making decisions. And as things have evolved in, I think, are just as people have have changed the mindset or the way of thinking where that stuff for somebody who’s Gen Z, they couldn’t even comprehend it, that there’s those type of people out there inside organizations, which I think is a huge positive, and something that’s going to drive our, our workforce to be stronger. So I think there’s positives and negatives with, with every, with every generation, I don’t think this one’s any different. They have their own motivations and desires just like I did when I was, you know, in my early 20s, and you both probably did as well. And some of those changes you and your generation was able to change. But at the end of the day, I mean companies still need to perform and revenue needs to happen and profit needs to be made and I don’t think this generation is going to impede that. from happening?

Chris Hoyt 25:02
Yeah, I wanted to make a viral Tik Tok joke. But you took us to a very real place.

John Wilson, WilsonHCG 25:06
I’m sorry.

Chris Hoyt 25:09
I appreciate it. Give us one more question for you, John. What do you see as the the biggest challenge ahead for big organizations over the next year, like the big the biggest hurdle that they should probably look out for? And there’s, there’s no money on the line here, obviously, but like, what, what should the big watch out be for 2024? For the bigger works?

John Wilson, WilsonHCG 25:29
Yeah, I think there’s gonna be winners and losers, like there isn’t every type of change environment, the uncertainty of the economic markets, its present. Everyone sees it, there are certain companies that are going to look at this as a time to improve and get better, others are going to look at it as we need to, we need to cut, cut, cut, cut, cut and wait for the good times. And as any, anyone who’s ever bought or sold a stock before would tell you, you you want to buy when it’s low and sell when it’s high. And I think we’re companies are going to have to make that decision as they head into 24. Which side of that they’re going to be on. But if there’s anything I could say for big companies is don’t be overly committal whether it’s to work from home more, or virtual or every company is going to move and evolve differently. And to set something as this is just the way it’s going to be. I think it two things will happen you will have you will attract less fantastic talent and you will drive certain people away being flexible and understanding and continuing to understand what the real goal is of an organization is really critical for short term and long term success.

Chris Hoyt 27:05
I love it. Don’t recruit and then lose is kind of what I what I took away from that right be a little flexible. Yeah. And stuff. Well, John, we asked this of everybody before we cut him loose. If you were gonna write a book today about the state of things and maybe even for 2020 for predictions if you wanted to what would you title that book?

John Wilson, WilsonHCG 27:28
Cautious Optimism?

Chris Hoyt 27:31
Love it. Who present company excluded who gets your first signed copy, John?

John Wilson, WilsonHCG 27:37
My daughters because then they would actually believe that I wrote it.

Chris Hoyt 27:43
I’m reminded was it Dwayne Johnson, his daughter for years didn’t believe he was in Moana. But he was he was the character in Moana, and they would argue about it.

John Wilson, WilsonHCG 27:53
I’m sure. I’m sure like, my daughters when there’s our sign was on a building. And I said, that’s our Yeah, that’s a company I run. And they’re like, No, you don’t. And that was the end of the conversation. And, okay.

Chris Hoyt 28:11
You’re not impressing anybody in that car now?

John Wilson, WilsonHCG 28:13
None.

Chris Hoyt 28:15
Well, John, much, much gratitude for you. Making the time to show up today. We really appreciate you sharing your insights and just just cutting time out of your schedule to talk to everybody.

John Wilson, WilsonHCG 28:24
Thank you both very much.

Chris Hoyt 28:26
All right. We appreciate you. Hang out in the green room real quick. All right, everybody, for everybody else. We’ll see you next week.

CXR Announcer 28:34
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