S4 E34 | Have you met… Gerry Crispin

Welcome to the CXR channel, our premier podcast for talent acquisition and talent management. Listen in as the CXR community discusses a wide range of topics focused on attracting, engaging and retaining the best talent. We’re glad you’re here.

Shannon Pritchett 0:20
Hey, how’s everyone doing? I’m Shannon Pritchett. I’m here to interview my mentor, the co founder of CXR, Gerry Crispin, as part of our get to know each other series. So Gerry, how are you doing today?

Gerry Crispin 0:35
I’m I’m really good. Life is a lifes been treating me very well. And I’m very happy and looking forward to the weekend. And just happy to be here.

Shannon Pritchett 0:47
Of course you are Gerry always happy to be everywhere. That’s one of the things we love most about you. So,

Gerry Crispin 0:53
So so quick story, though. I do answer that honestly and openly. Every single time someone asks me that I often will say I’m fabulous. I’m, you know, I’m great, I really feel good. But I have to tell you, it’s also a choice. I truly believe that your attitude dictates kind of your, your expression of yourself. And so I just chose many years ago that you know, every morning I’m going to choose whether or not this is my last day or not. And if it’s not, then it’s up to me to make it the best day I possibly can. So I just start off with an extraordinary attitude, which kind of puts some people off a little bit because it sometimes doesn’t feel real but but you know, if I say it, I make it so.

Shannon Pritchett 1:55
This is gonna be a really good conversation, especially with wisdom you just drop right there. You know, and that’s this one of the things I love most about you, Gerry. It’s not that you live each day toward your fullest. It’s, you know, I think you’ve been through enough situations, enough life experiences to know how to wake up and put on a positive attitude. You know, it’s, that’s one of the things I love most about you is that you know, you’re one of be I mean, when we see each other in person, Gerry, you know, it’s just, I know what it’s gonna be good to see you in the morning. Of course, you’re always the last person to go to bed to which is one of the things that’s most impressive about you. But I want to I want to peel off the layers a little bit and there’s a lot of questions I have. So this is me trying to get to know you a little bit better. But, you know, one of the things that attracted me to you and I told my story, how I found CareerXroads, which means that’s how I found you. And when I first read your bio and met you, you were a self proclaimed student of the industry. Have you ever been a student? Or was there a particular moment when you realize that there’s a lot to learn? And you’re just gonna spend the rest of your life doing it?

Gerry Crispin 3:09
No, um, oh, I will. I’ve always been a student in terms of my attitude and how I viewed myself. It was only though about 10 years ago, 10, or maybe a little bit longer, but somewhere in that vicinity, that I actually changed my title to student to remind myself as well as others that I don’t, I don’t buy into the idea of being an expert. I think expertise is is too hard to maintain. You have to especially in a world that changes constantly to truly be an expert. That means you’ve got to be on top of something in real time, as it changes over and over and over again. And I just don’t think anyone can possibly do that. So the moment you become a, quote expert, you you start to develop terior eight because she will end up defending your your point of view that now is getting older and older and older and older. And I just think that’s the wrong attitude to have. And I did spend. So I will say that I spent 10 years in college, so kind of think about it, I was a slow student. I had four years as an engineer, and then somebody, you know, enthusiastically got me involved in thinking about the fact that I’ve been spending all this time thinking about systems and, and things and I should be using some of the same kind of critical thinking skills to look at people. And so started to look into industrial organizational psychology and got fascinated. I became totally enamored of this whole issue of how organizations exist and how they structure And how they work together and all that kind of stuff. So is one of those true IO types? That is 50 years ago. So this is a long, long time ago. And there was a group of us in, in, in graduate school that, that banded together. And we were extremely critical of the, of how we were being taught. And so we, we literally leveraged our capabilities to go to we went to the head of the department, we went to the professor’s and in a positive way, we basically said, you don’t want to learn what you’re teaching us. We’ve decided we know what we want to learn. And we want you to teach us what we’re telling you, you need to teach us. And so we reinvented our program well around around technology and economics and and, and a whole variety of different kinds of things that created us as the, you know, as the center. So our, you know, I participated in my education of how I learned and and and so I became, you know, fascinated by the fact that true world class student knows that they don’t know everything so you know, you You just have to be digging constantly and questioning constantly. What Why do you believe that this is true? And you know, what is the underpinnings of this and where did this come from? And what are the possibilities that that might change and all of those kinds of things that when you’re when you surround yourself with a group of students, all of whom love doing that? You you find that your learning is on steroids, really. Yeah. And and you really learn to think And so that’s kind of where it started. But I also realized that, you know, it wasn’t until the internet that you could see the speed with which everything was now changing. And then it became clear to me that people were, you know, calling not only me but just lots of people were expressing themselves as I am the expert, I am the thought leader, I am the whatever and, and I’m going No, you’re not you’re just a turkey who’s making money because somebody is asking you questions, you know, so, so that’s what I just said, This is bullshit. I’m just gonna be I’m just gonna, you know, revert if you will, to the, to the place where I’ve always been and always want to be and that is it constantly learning. I wouldn’t be I would be retired along with so many others of my age. If, if I were not learning, there’s no there’s no need to sit there and go and pontificate. You know, what I mean?

Shannon Pritchett 8:09
Mm hmm. Absolutely. So a follow up question to that. Growing up college, pre college. What kind of student were you?

Gerry Crispin 8:18
I was the shittiest student you’ve ever seen in your life. I was a a in high school. I there was one year I think it was my junior year. My junior year I didn’t go to school. I just didn’t I my mother was teaching. Sixth grade ironically, my father was busy doing his thing and I quit. I just cut classes every single day, wrote these stupid notes, made phone calls and fake voices. I did everything that you see in the in the comics, I did all of those things and got away with them. When I got my grades that were D’s and F’s. I carefully whited them out and put B’s and you know, C’s in them, and then had to turn it. After my mother signed the damn thing. I then had to redo it back. And before long it was getting really raggedy, I was smart enough that I could go to a test and pass the test. I could, I could, you know, read, you know, a precis of a book and kind of invent the entire plot and write a decent whatever, although I wasn’t a very good writer, so I was very good with math. I was very good with all the stem kinds of things. And so that was the end of my high school. I will say that in as a freshman in high school. I went to a all boys School run by Marist brothers and they beat the hell out of you or you know, yelled at your screamed at you if you did not study for hours at night. And I was ranked second in the class and because of that, but that was that was one year and then I went to public school and God helped me everything, you know, just fell apart. And then as a as an engineer in college, um, you know, it was not that hard if you study you know, the middle of the night so I was a fraternity brother and I got very active in, in a variety of things. I was editor of the school paper, we won a number of awards, a human though I couldn’t write, I had people, you know, helping me to learn how to write engineers don’t write very well. And, and so I got very active in in sports, but as the as the manager, I couldn’t play for to save my life I get in trouble if I played I get I played lacrosse for about 10 minutes and and ran across the the first time they put me in I ran across and hit some kid who had the ball with stick. So he was taken out. And of course I was taken out and then you know, the coach said I could use a manager you know, why don’t you do that? So that’s that’s what I did

Shannon Pritchett 11:31
That sounds like a really good lacrosse player to me. I thought that was the point of the game, but what do I know?

Gerry Crispin 11:36
So I graduated pretty much at the bottom of my class from a as an engineer, and and then in graduate school opened up to me and I fell in love with it. And and for the six years that I was in graduate school, I excelled. I mean I you know, there wasn’t anything I could not learn. I was smart enough to learn You know, it’s just I didn’t have the motivation in the past to really learn. And so graduate school was where I began to become a little bit self aware about the importance of education and the importance of how you how you learn.

Shannon Pritchett 12:16
Yeah, I had no idea you were the editor of your school paper because I was the editor of our school paper as well.

Gerry Crispin 12:22
Were you, how cool

Shannon Pritchett 12:24
Yeah. So I guess

Gerry Crispin 12:26
I’ll have to when I have all of the all of the papers from from my era, you’d get a kick out of some of them. Obviously, this was a, this was not a, an easy era. This was my, my editor ship was 68′ through through 69′, half of 69′. So Vietnam was becoming critical. A number of a number of colleges were taken over by students. I participated in, in the Colombia takeover, even even though I was from Stevens, so I was like an outsider who went over there. And, and I did that, as I told myself I was doing as a journalist, but that, you know, it is what it is, and participate in a number of protests during that crazy period. And of course, my father is a retired colonel. So that didn’t that didn’t help my relationships with family at the time.

Shannon Pritchett 13:28
No, yeah, my dad as well as a retired colonel, but he was over in Vietnam. So you and I have a lot, a lot of passions that that we shared, I want to expand on some of those. One, and this is why I consider myself a student in why I love it so much. It’s just traveling and getting outside of the US because there’s to me, you know, there’s so much to learn beyond your backyard and beyond your comfort zone. You know, tell me about some of your memories traveling abroad and some of the countries that you have really enjoyed.

Gerry Crispin 14:04
Yeah. And you know, I had a little bit of it when I was a kid, my father was in the service. And we lived in Germany for a couple years. But but throughout my entire career, up until almost about 2000, I never went anywhere outside of the United States. So I’m over 50 years old at that point, and have never been outside the United States since I was a kid. So, and I realized that that was something missing for me. And then again, from a student point of view, I’m a fan of trying to get outside of your comfort zone. You mentioned that earlier. You know, and I think that you, you learn when it’s awkward. When there’s, there’s, you know, there’s a little bit of angst about am I doing this right, am I even Am I being appropriate? Am I embarrassing myself? kind of thing.

Shannon Pritchett 15:00
Oh, yeah.

Gerry Crispin 15:01
And so we had an opportunity starting around 2000 to go with delegations to different countries. So China, India, and several of them. And so and I’ll mention that several more but but at that, basically they were run by Sherm at the time the earlier earlier ones, and they, they would send me a note that said, No, you can’t come because because you’re not a vice president of human resources. So we’re not letting people who are characters like you in to do this and I’m going what was on the board at Sherm, for God’s sake, give me a break. So I would, I wouldn’t take no for an answer. I would yell at them a little bit. And eventually they say, Oh, yeah, okay, we have, we still have enough spots left. We’ll let you come. So so that was nice. But what I loved about it was the ability to To go to a country, meet with the government, meet with employers, meet with students meet with professors, and then still get a little bit of the tourist stuff but the touristy stuff never interested me. I mean, I like learning about that. But it was the people that you met who, whose point of view was so extraordinarily different. You know, I was so for example, you know, we’re meeting with the Minister of commerce or something like that for for in China. And there must have been 50 of his people, you know, in the room, along with the 12 of us or 15 of us that were there from from the United States. And any gave a long involved speech about how China was becoming a marketer. Getting driven or going as you know, company, etc. And as somebody asked the question, I think it was me It might have been someone else though. So, so you mentioned that some of the country is not is not marketing driven. So what percentage, you know, or how many people? Do you determine what they what they are to do as a country, and how much they’re going to get paid for it and you know, that sort of thing that isn’t marketing driven. And he thought for a second, he said, only about 100 and 50 million people. I’m thinking that’s more people than are working in the United States. And and so you’re talking about all this marketing driven stuff, but 100 and 50 million people aren’t. They’re just they’re just the people doing this stuff. So anyhow, um, so you begin to learn that kind of thing. And then I decided that, again, as a student, I really don’t want to lead a delegation. So we had this Facebook thing where somebody noted that Cuba was going to open up and Americans for the first time would be able to go so I wrote a Facebook post and said, shit, let’s go to Cuba. And and something like 30 people said, I’m in I mean, we’ll do it. So I go, Oh, okay. Well, we’re not going to go to Cuba on my on my leadership. So I said China Gorman, who I absolutely love and, and admire and her her work. And she was she had been the CEO of Sherm and had been president of a couple companies. And I said, Look, I want to I want to take a delegation but I don’t want to be able to do this. So if we work together on this, you get to lead it. And that means you get to take the benefit of it of going free, if you will. Because usually that’s how it’s set up. The leader of the delegation, gets their expenses paid. I said, I’ll figure out some way to get my expenses paid, which I did. But the end result was, the two of us went she did all of the extraordinary job of saying all the right words to the, you know, in Cuba to the Minister of propaganda and the Minister of law and the various people that we met and give them gifts and do all the things that were appropriate. And I got to sit in the back of the class and have a ball. You know, and, and you hear in the delegation, different ways of thinking about stuff, and we had that delegation to Cuba. You gotta get You gotta be kidding me, Laurie. And was with us. Matt Charney was with us and a couple other characters. And so the diversity of opinions about what we see, in a country where the average salary was about $50 a month,

Shannon Pritchett 20:16

Gerry Crispin 20:18
And people had these side gigs that they were doing that was fascinating. But they were and they were so engaged around, around, you know, what they called socialism, which I thought was absolutely fascinating. I never seen anything like that. And learning but we learned also that everybody had a job every day if you were a musician. The government gave you a place where you could go and play every single day and at the end of the month, you got your 50 bucks. And, and you know what, you could live on 50 bucks. You wouldn’t have any side income to buy some cool things, but you could pay for your food, your electricity, your house, and anything else you you had, you didn’t have, you know, other issues relative to that,

Shannon Pritchett 21:11

Gerry Crispin 21:12
If you went and became a doctor in Cuba, you still gonna make around 50 bucks. But, but before you do since it took six years to become a doctor, you now owe the government six years and they can tell you where to go. And for many of them, for many of them. They had planned to have twice as many doctors as they needed in Cuba. And the excess doctors all went to Africa for several years to support African countries in a in their health care.

Shannon Pritchett 21:48

Gerry Crispin 21:50
Now think about that. The impact of that is that some of those African countries paid the Government of Cuba

Shannon Pritchett 21:57
Mm hmm

Gerry Crispin 21:58
Money But the people in Africa had an extraordinary positive view of Cuba, in terms of the work that they did.

Shannon Pritchett 22:09

Gerry Crispin 22:10
And for many of the doctors, they did come back.

Shannon Pritchett 22:13
That’s amazing.

Gerry Crispin 22:14
This is the kind of stuff you learn. And you know, and in the last couple years, we’ve been in Singapore, which is probably one of the most incredible places I’ve been in, in how the government employers and education work together to create one of the most amazing, amazing countries from a from a success point of view that I’ve ever seen. And And clearly, this is not a democracy, by any means. But it’s a paternal dictatorship. And and so it’s kind of fascinating to see that

Shannon Pritchett 22:53
What was their unemployment rate, Gerry, you mentioned it was low as well.

Gerry Crispin 22:56
It was point three. So getting close to zero. On the other hand, you could claim that some of the people disappeared who didn’t have jobs. So it’s, you know, it. It’s not someplace that I’m going to live, but it’s someplace that I need to have an open mind to appreciate the kind of thinking that went into examining the reality of a country and what it could do what it could dominate from an industry point of view, getting clear about the industries that would work in that country, and then providing the kind of incentives to education to employers and to employees that would allow for every single person in that country to work

Shannon Pritchett 23:47

Gerry Crispin 23:47
And, and to make a good living and to have good food and to have cars or if they want, but they’re going to pay a lot for that card. So I I was blown away by that. I you know, and then the contrast was the year before we were in? Oh, no, not the year, the year before we were in Budapest, so Eastern Europe, so Prague was there and the year before that we were in Japan,

Shannon Pritchett 24:14
That’s right.

Gerry Crispin 24:15
And so being able to go to these countries that are so different from one another, and understand how, how people are incented, to work by the government, by employers, how they’re treated. How you know, and how they’re able to express themselves and live is, to me a fascinating kind of learning and I bring back with me, ideas that forced me to rethink, always and recalibrate always how we do what we do in recruiting and and human resources.

Shannon Pritchett 24:52
And that’s what I really like about traveling. Not only is it a privilege to travel, but yet it’s also very humbling. And just in your mind, then I have you and I can keep doing that, because I’ve yet to join one of those trips.

Gerry Crispin 25:08
I think it’d be great i next year, I really we’ve been thinking about Vietnam. So one of those, that’s one of the possibilities. And the other. I’ve been thinking about Israel, in part because it might be the right time to go, given how much technology especially emerging technologies coming out of Israel right now. And the one time that I had been so it’s, it is a country I’ve been to, they have, they have some real interesting issues in conversations in terms of race, gender, ethnicity, etc, that are, you know, very powerful problems and issues for them. And so I think it would be kind of an interesting way to go and And kind of engage.

Shannon Pritchett 26:01
Absolutely. Sign me up for those.

Gerry Crispin 26:04
And by the way on my Facebook is the deputy mayor of Tel Aviv. Oh, and I know where some really interesting possibilities are for for some of the tourism too. So we’re good

Shannon Pritchett 26:18
Yeah, yeah, I’ve been I’ve been to Vietnam, but yeah, Israel I’ve been and I would go back and heartbeat. It’s unbelievable. Beautiful of Tel Aviv is just gorgeous. So it’s incredible. So, Gerry, how did you fall in love with wine?

Gerry Crispin 26:32
Oh, that’s easy. But it’s an odd story. When I was in China is what it is. I was in China. The first time was probably 2001 or 2002. I think there’s

Shannon Pritchett 26:50
So you fell in love with wine in China.

Gerry Crispin 26:54
Nope but it caused it. It’s it’s how it started.

Shannon Pritchett 26:58

Gerry Crispin 26:58
Because I didn’t drink I really didn’t drink most of my adult life. I drank way too much when I was in college. And and I just stopped drinking at all, for most of my adult life, and then I went to China. And the first time and I went because Corning wanted to improve what they did in China, they wanted to have more, more cachet with the Chinese that they were there. So at the time, I was writing books and doing a variety of things. And they are they offered to bring me and have have a conference, if you will, in the evening. And they would get 100 HR people think about 100 HR people in 2001. Anyway, together and the way that they learned how to do that. So they had to do all of this. So the way they would do that together is they would offer a special dinner a banquet for and and the number of the number of different types of foods would dictate how important the person was who was coming to give the talk.

Shannon Pritchett 28:26

Gerry Crispin 28:26
I was going to be fitted at a 100 dish dinner.

Shannon Pritchett 28:32

Gerry Crispin 28:33
100 different dishes. And it did attract about at, I don’t know heads of HR. Although you know HR is not quite the same thing as it is here in the United States. So at least it wasn’t at the top. And and I did my thing, but I stayed a couple extra days and one of the day before I was to leave. I was in my room and I had a heart attack.

Shannon Pritchett 28:58

Gerry Crispin 29:00
And it was about, I don’t know, eight or nine o’clock at night

Shannon Pritchett 29:03
in China.

Gerry Crispin 29:05
The other thing that you should know is that at that moment, China was in the middle of SARS, ah, and news, the newsreel for the only English Israel had that I just seen, which didn’t cause the heart attack but but basically was part of this basically said that the United States within the next day or two might in fact, stop airplanes from China from returning to the United States.

Shannon Pritchett 29:34
So this is the worst possible time and location at the moment to have a heart attack.

Gerry Crispin 29:40
So so I’m in pain, and I could go to a hospital in which they probably aren’t going to speak English, they’re probably aren’t going to tell me what they’re doing. I have no idea and they might stick me in a in a I had the, you know, this fantasy of being stuck in a in a bed next to somebody was SARS that I don’t even know what that is and I didn’t know what that would mean. So I have nothing I have I just, I’m alone and I’m scared. So I called the United Airlines and convinced them to change my flight to one that was going to leave in about two hours. I went downstairs, I got in a cab, and when I got to the airport, there were like 50 armed policemen who were facing outward watching with eagle eyes, all of the people coming into the airport to make sure that they weren’t looking like they were sick. So I’m sweating. I’m sweating. I’m in pain. I can barely use my left arm. So I dragged myself in there trying to look look okay, I got on a plane. I came home got I got home 17 hours later I obviously was alive. I said to my wife, I said, I think I had a heart attack. She said, you asshole. Me too. He put me in the car and drove me to to a heart Doctor Who. And this is the first doctor I’d see I’d seen probably in 30 years or 40 years so I didn’t go to doctors or anything. So the doctor did an EKG and said, Oh shit, you had a heart attack. And and wouldn’t let us drive to the hospital basically called an ambulance. I went to the hospital. I was in for three days. He came in on the third day, he said, he said, we’re not going to do anything because there’s no sense in putting a stent in and opening up an artery that was closed. He said, your your blood pushed around and you have a natural bypass. And he said, You know, you didn’t lose too much this time, but you really need to make sure that you stop smoking. I was a smoker. And that was 20 years ago. So So I that was I never had a cigarette since. And he said and this is the point of the whole story. He said stop smoking and occasionally have a glass of wine.

Shannon Pritchett 32:31
Oh, yeah.

Gerry Crispin 32:32
So immediately in my mind, smoking bad wine good. And I knew I didn’t know much about wine. So I made a deal with my wife that the next vacation we would be going to Italy because I figured I can’t even pronounce most of the French stuff. And and I have a heritage of being a you know, half Italian. So we went to we made a deal and the deal was that for the most part, I wanted to just learn about wine. So we went to Tuscany we lived in a farmhouse for 10 days with some friends. And every day we would drive to a different place like a multi no and monk, you know and San Jimmy Johnny and you know, those kinds of places, and I would sit in the, in the pizza and, and just imagine that Michelangelo was sitting next to me go, you know, asking me advice about, you know, David or something. And just everything looked exactly like it did 500 years ago.

Shannon Pritchett 33:49

Gerry Crispin 33:50
And in people and many of the wineries had their wine barrels buried into the hill underneath them. These, you know, these these little places for a year and they come out of their stores and they would be giving me all these different glasses of wine to test in hopes that I would buy a bottle or two, which I would do I buy a bottle or two. And and I did that for most of the week.

Shannon Pritchett 34:21

Gerry Crispin 34:22
One day in Rome one day in in one of the other places. And then it was just great.

Shannon Pritchett 34:32
I think it’s easy to fall in love if you’re going to do it in Italy.

Gerry Crispin 34:37
So So yeah, so I that was it. I started learning only 15-16 years ago and I’m still learning about wine. I try to have a discipline to back where is it? I have right here. My tasting journal.

Shannon Pritchett 34:55

Gerry Crispin 34:56
So I, I write I write little notes. You know, I’m stuff that I drink.

Shannon Pritchett 35:02
All right favorite glass of wine. What is it?

Gerry Crispin 35:06
This one is Anthony’s Cabernet. Fruit forward intense, very smooth. It’s it’s not cheap. And I gave it a pretty pretty high rating a 93

Shannon Pritchett 35:23

Gerry Crispin 35:24
But this is a Cabernet Antinori Townsend vineyard, so it’s a single vineyard from 2015

Shannon Pritchett 35:34
Is that your highest rating, 93′?

Gerry Crispin 35:38
Yeah, yeah, one one of the it’s, it’s, it’s a good it’s a good habit at my age

Shannon Pritchett 35:46
Wine is you know, so I fell in love with wine, because I was a server at a restaurant and I needed to make more tips. So I got into wine because the more stories you can tell about wine the more you know about wine, the more money you make and so I sent myself out to Napa and I learned about you know, the vineyards that have dogs riding around and you know where things were and the more I talked about it, the more money I made and then I tasted it and you know, it’s so that’s how I fell in love with it. But with wine like you just said, the French wines are hard to pronounce it for me, it’s like I feel like I know some of Napa wine. I’d give myself a 10 out of 100 but I don’t know Washington wine. I would love to know French wine, Spanish wine. I just had my first bottle of Spanish wine It was phenomenal. And just like, you know, talking about being students, to me, that’s what I love about wine. So you know, talking to a master sommelier, talking to a master Wooster and you, you can learn so much. And it’s all you know about different palates, different experiences and different smells and why we fall in love with these things. And to me, that’s I like wine, you know, there’s so

Gerry Crispin 37:01
I think it’s fine. Now, I will say this and this is for the record, that you and I have had dinner in a variety of different places for for many years. And I I proudly admit that I have never picked the wine when you and I are having that you that I, I defer to you, in part because I learned something doing it. And also you love you love wine, and I know that and so, you know, I try not to be the guy that hogs the wine list kind of thing. You know, it’s it’s, I think it’s I think it’s important to share. And so I’m very proud of the fact that even the first time that we we met really and had dinner together That was in Nashville, I recall. And you were with Manpower. I think you were with somebody. You because You we I think we split some of the cost of that dinner between the two of us or something like that.

Shannon Pritchett 38:17
I called you up. Yeah, I heard the first meal we had together was down in Atlanta with a big group of people. So you might have them but I was watching you. But in Kane crime and Nashville, we were looking to do a dinner. We just wanted to have good wine, good food and good conversation. And so I have to call Gerry. And it’s still although I don’t live in Nashville anymore is one of my favorite restaurants and that’s exactly what we did. You know, we sat around and we had good food. So you know what I really like about the food that we had there is that John Vasalisa was with us. He took pictures of all food he’s tried to recreate that same meal. But you know, that’s that’s all that you need no good stories, good conversation to flow, good community and some good nibbles.

Gerry Crispin 39:15
Yeah, I do think relationships are built on breaking bread in some to some degree. It’s not totally that way. But I do think you build affinity for one another when you can, you know, share food, share wine or you know, drink and, and kind of engage in conversation about, about things you have in common. And I you know, I think that over the years, I’ve learned to engage and and meet with and enjoy lots of people whose points of view are extraordinarily different from from mine. But where but where we have things that are in common, we can engage around those. And it helps me better understand the world, you know, around me.

Shannon Pritchett 40:10
Absolutely. So Gerry, we’re approaching the end of our podcast. I can do this all day. It’s just over some wine. So I’m a newest recruiter, right? Just started listening, I’m falling in love with the world and fall in love with Gerry, I’m falling in love with wine. What was the wisdom would you give the next generation of recruiters and sourcer’s?

Gerry Crispin 40:34
I really think that everyone should be able to kind of rewrite their resume every two years. And in doing so, you can compare what it looked like two years ago versus what it looks like today. And if you’re not, if you’ve not grown or evolved, and that means you could be doing the same job because you love The same job. So one possibility is that but but it looks exactly like it. You’re not, you’re not developing, you’re not mastering you’re not. You’re not building and evolving. Your life is, you know, is the same as it was it you need to have a light in my opinion we all need to have a life that is memorable for you.

Shannon Pritchett 41:26
Mm hmm.

Gerry Crispin 41:26
And if you can’t tell the difference between this year and last year, you know, you’re getting stale for yourself and there’s only so many years you’re going to have there’s only so many days we all have.

Shannon Pritchett 41:38

Gerry Crispin 41:38
So it’s it’s a for many people. That’s, that is one thing that they could do that kind of gives you that. And now you start thinking Well, what do I need to learn what I need to do in the next two years, if you will to either move my goals to what I want maybe I want to be the CHRO maybe I want to be the head of ta maybe I want to go out on my own, maybe I want to do whatever. What are you doing to evolve your job in the context of a career and your career in the context of your life. So if, if your life and you know, when you’re younger, and when you’re middle aged, and when you’re older, there’s different aspects of how you want to operate in work, so that you enhance your life as well. So, you know, you need to be able to do those kinds of things. And I think that if you do, you start being able to be more in the moment. And so it’s not so much about the job. I do believe you should find a job that’s that you’re passionate about, and that can put enough food on the table. It’s it’s not always everybody’s not always able to do do that or do it all the time. But I think that should be the one of the strongest aspirations is to, to love the job in a way that, that that satisfies you, that part of your life. And then you begin to be more in the moment so that you can appreciate this moment. And, and you know, I don’t know, I think my philosophy is that when we came out of the womb, when we’re a child, there is a there is a perception that the child is in this single moment. It only recognizes this moment it doesn’t recognize past hasn’t yet learned about the future. And as you evolve as a human being, you do have the capacity to think about the past and the future, but often forget the present. And I think as we get older, we kind of move naturally back towards that present. Yeah. And that there’s not, you know what, I think that’s nothing wrong with that. I think there’s a natural movement there. But I do think there’s a pleasure if you can be, if you can see your life a little bit in the context, not just of the past and the future and your future aspirations, but to enjoy the present. You know, we tend to worry about the past and worry about the future and, and, and it screws up our ability to be here now with you. Do you know what I mean? And, and to me, I think anybody anyone who tries to accomplish that, I think is is doing fine, you know, so that’s, that’s probably my best. My best advice as opposed to become, you know, take a course or do something in recruiting or whatever if if you know If recruiting is for you, you should be able to figure it out within a couple years for sure. And if it’s not for you, get the hell out, you know, go sell something else do whatever. I’m, I’m not a fan of recruiters who are technicians who just do it, and do it, put a job body in the seat and do it because, you know, it puts money in their pocket. I think that some people have to do that, and I get it. But if you I don’t surround myself with people like that I surround myself with people who actually give a shit about what we do, and really care about the impact that they make on the lives of the people that they touch. And I think that’s true for every true profession. And if you see that, then I think you know, I think you build a satisfying life for yourself, how’s that sound?

Shannon Pritchett 45:59
I think it’s the perfect way for us to end, but before we leave I just thank you and of course this was fun

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